From what I gather, Chinese characters are pictograms and ideograms (and combination etc); they can be read iconically, phonetically or associatively. This reminds me strongly of Egyptian hieroglyphs. Can anyone tell me more about this relation or suggest a good site (or a book), because all I find are political sites, new age sites and some tiny pieces of information. Thnx
Chinese characters and Egyptian hieroglyphs
They are indeed like heiroglyphs in that respect, but unfortunately I know little about heiroglyphs, so I don't have much information to offer...
Do you have any specific questions in mind?
- Kef
Do you have any specific questions in mind?
- Kef
I understand that all writing systems evolved from pictograms, like Hieroglyphs>Proto-Sinaitic>Proto-Canaanite>Phoenician alphabet>Greek Alphabet/Aramaic Alphabet>Latin/Cyrillic/Arabic/Brahmi(?). And Chinese characters didn't evolve that much, but that doesn't interest me. I am wondering about a possible Proto-pictogram system. Many indigenous peoples invented some sort of pictogram form of communication; and it seems to be the natural proces. So, since all humankind evolved from few individuals in Africa and spread all over the world, I wonder if there existed a Proto-pictography (or whatever name you want) which spread all over the world.
I also wonder if Chinese pictograms (allegedly since 5000 BC) influenced Egyptian pictograms (allegedly since 3200 BC).
I hope this is specific enough. ;)
I also wonder if Chinese pictograms (allegedly since 5000 BC) influenced Egyptian pictograms (allegedly since 3200 BC).
I hope this is specific enough. ;)
I've found one significant difference so far between Egyptian heiroglyphs and Chinese characters... heiroglyphs are apparently far more phonetic. For instance, if we were writing English in heiroglyphs, we might create one character, "eye", and use it again to represent the idea of "I", and possibly in other words requiring the same sound. Chinese does this sometimes, but what it used to do much more often was create a new character, although the new character will often have the homonym as a component of the new character in order to hint at the pronunciation, but the result is still regarded as a single, entirely different character. However, since it's so hard to create new characters (especially with computers now), and there are already so many characters, when the Chinese make a phonetic loanword from another language, they always use other characters with the same sounds. They often distort the pronunciation a little in order to be able to use characters that give a hint to the meaning, though, rather than use a more accurate pronunciation but spell it with gibberish.
By contrast, Egyptian is phonetic enough that all Egyptian could theoretically be written using 24 characters, though Egyptian was never written this way. Chinese characters always represent entire syllables, not phonemes as Egyptian phonetic signs did, so anything close to this would be impossible in Chinese.
I have my doubts that there were major writing systems before heiroglyphs, other than possibly Sumerian cuneiform (I think we're not certain which came first). One would think there would be some evidence of it left behind... even if there were no direct evidence, later people could have written about it.
- Kef
By contrast, Egyptian is phonetic enough that all Egyptian could theoretically be written using 24 characters, though Egyptian was never written this way. Chinese characters always represent entire syllables, not phonemes as Egyptian phonetic signs did, so anything close to this would be impossible in Chinese.
I have my doubts that there were major writing systems before heiroglyphs, other than possibly Sumerian cuneiform (I think we're not certain which came first). One would think there would be some evidence of it left behind... even if there were no direct evidence, later people could have written about it.
- Kef
Thank you for your input, I appreciate it.
I wasn't thinking of a major writing system, but of the first one, and it was certainly not major. I mean; I'm not interested in fully developed systems, but rather in their beginnings.
I'm still searching for some article (or book, or something) about comparative research on hieroglyphs and Chn. characters; as well as on pictography.
I wasn't thinking of a major writing system, but of the first one, and it was certainly not major. I mean; I'm not interested in fully developed systems, but rather in their beginnings.
I'm still searching for some article (or book, or something) about comparative research on hieroglyphs and Chn. characters; as well as on pictography.
"I wasn't thinking of a major writing system, but of the first one, and it was certainly not major. I mean; I'm not interested in fully developed systems, but rather in their beginnings."
The beginnings of writing systems of the Sumerian cuneiform, Egyptian heiroglyphs, Chinese sinograms and Mayan glyphs, I guess that they all developed from the pictures of TOTEM, as like the Indians' totems in North America and the Pacific Islanders' totem.
totem
The beginnings of writing systems of the Sumerian cuneiform, Egyptian heiroglyphs, Chinese sinograms and Mayan glyphs, I guess that they all developed from the pictures of TOTEM, as like the Indians' totems in North America and the Pacific Islanders' totem.
totem
Totem, do you know an article or a book to support your theory; or could you at least elaborate a little? I'm interested.
我相信人类最初的语言都是类似象形文字的，只是后来其中的一部分演化成了拼音文字，而只有汉语保持了象形文字的特征。
某种意义上讲，汉语可以成为古代语言的活化石。
某种意义上讲，汉语可以成为古代语言的活化石。
sino
I agree. But, what is interesting (to me), are the very first beginnings of the writing. Do you Chinese know exactly how your writing system came to life? Where did it begin and how? Plz
I agree. But, what is interesting (to me), are the very first beginnings of the writing. Do you Chinese know exactly how your writing system came to life? Where did it begin and how? Plz
I choose Korean instead of Japanese and Chinese, because of the alphabet, Korean script is pretty easy (compared to other Asian scripts). Chinese characters used to be in frequent use in Korean until 1900, but now they are considered obsolete (or too literary) so you can do fine in Korea using Hangul only.
Learning Chinese and Japanese has that strange feeling of being illiterate no matter how long you've been learning it, it's frustrating.
Learning Chinese and Japanese has that strange feeling of being illiterate no matter how long you've been learning it, it's frustrating.
An interest pamphlet on the subject is "the Alphabet Makers" from the Museum of the Alphabet, Waxhaw, North Carolina and the Summer Institute of Linguistics, Huntingdon Beach, California, USA.
ISBN: 0-938978-13-6
ISBN: 0-938978-13-6
Ok so in Chinese let's say that this simbol #* means "Cat" and its sound is "Com"
Then this simbol +| means "River" and its sound is "Piu"
And finnaly this simbol /^ means "Night" and its sound is "Ter"
So if you wanted to say "Compiuter" in Chinese it would be: #*+|^
Is that right?
Then this simbol +| means "River" and its sound is "Piu"
And finnaly this simbol /^ means "Night" and its sound is "Ter"
So if you wanted to say "Compiuter" in Chinese it would be: #*+|^
Is that right?
"汉语可以说是一种顽固不化的语言"
"It (the Literary Chinese, a Written Language) is a message but not a language."
The Literary Chinese (文言文) and the Hanyu (汉语) is different languages.
The Literary Chinese is only a WRITTEN LANGUAGE from the time of Qin Dynasty (221bc - 206bc) to the time of 1920s. Which is only a message but not a language, such as the symbols in mathematics. The Mandarins, the Shanghainese, the Cantonese, the Japanese, the Korean and the Vietnamese and etc., they shared this WRITTEN LANGUAGE and pronounce it in their own native language.
The Hanyu (汉语) is a SPOKEN LANGUAGE which means the Mandarin Language and this language is developed from the time of Yuan Dynasty (1279 - 1368). In the 1920s, 1950s and 1980s, the Governments promoted the Movement of Mandarinization (国语运动, 推广普通话运动) which is plan to adopt this spoken language (Mandarin) and its writing system to replace the Literary Chinese, and other its Sister Languages, as like the Wunese, Cantonese, Hakkanese and etc.
"It (the Literary Chinese, a Written Language) is a message but not a language."
The Literary Chinese (文言文) and the Hanyu (汉语) is different languages.
The Literary Chinese is only a WRITTEN LANGUAGE from the time of Qin Dynasty (221bc - 206bc) to the time of 1920s. Which is only a message but not a language, such as the symbols in mathematics. The Mandarins, the Shanghainese, the Cantonese, the Japanese, the Korean and the Vietnamese and etc., they shared this WRITTEN LANGUAGE and pronounce it in their own native language.
The Hanyu (汉语) is a SPOKEN LANGUAGE which means the Mandarin Language and this language is developed from the time of Yuan Dynasty (1279 - 1368). In the 1920s, 1950s and 1980s, the Governments promoted the Movement of Mandarinization (国语运动, 推广普通话运动) which is plan to adopt this spoken language (Mandarin) and its writing system to replace the Literary Chinese, and other its Sister Languages, as like the Wunese, Cantonese, Hakkanese and etc.