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Cumbric-Revival or survival
I agree that any eforts to revive the ancient Cumbric tongue will merely collapse into a pile of dust. I just won't happen, no matter how regrettable that is. Cumbrians may, or may not, be very proud of their heritage - my guess is that the vast majority don't give much heed to it one way or the other - they may love living in Cumbria (which is the area which formerly comrpsied of Cumberland, Westmorland, and small parts of Lancashire and Yorkshire), and borderiong onto Scotland. The Cumbric tongue even extended into parts of Southern Scotland, as far north as Glasgow. I really can't see any great interest being shown in the revival of this long dead Language.
Cornish is in a slightly different situation as Celtic origin Cornwall is quite distinctly "different" in character from the rest of England, even from neighbouring Devon, which is as Anglo Saxon English a county as any English county can be, in it's scenery as well as its character. Cumbria, however, is very much like any other county in Northern England, even though they do have their own local accent and dialect there. Cumbria includes Lakeland, of course, better known as the Lake District, and was the home of some of England's best known poets and writers, such as William Wordsworth and Beatrix Potter.
I spent this last weekend down in Cornwall before driving all the way up back home to Edinburgh through the night Tuesday/Wednesday. Of course I didn't hear a word of Cornish being spoken - the vast majority of the Cornish population don't know a single word of Cornish. What's more, the original true Cornish accent (of English) is pretty thin on the ground - only old wheezer geezers in the quaint harbourside pubs seem to speak in a Cornish burr. English English RP seems to be the norm, certainly among the younger populace....mixed in with a wee bit of their own version of Estuary.
It's the placenames of Cornwall that are now the most interesting - they still retain the original Celtic heritage. Many of the little villages have the weirdest looking names, and some have religious connotations - predominantly Methodist. One village sign I saw was Come To Good. Many resemblle Welsh names, which is no surprise at all as Cornish and Welsh are more or less blood brothers. Both Wales and Cornwall have loads and loads of places starting with "Tre" (meaning a town or village) or Pen" (meaning a hill). And the word "traeth" (meaning a beach) is also common to both regions of the UK.
In the lovely seaside town of St Ives (a haven for artists and way out wacky artistic screwballs, in the nicest possible way) and with fantastic Atlantic roller surfing beaches as well as one of the nicest wee harbours in Cornwall, I saw a house called Ty Morvah. This means "a house near the shore" - the Welsh equivalent being Ty Morfa, meaning exactly the same thing. It's the spellings that have diverged, not the meanings. The Cornish retained the V for the v sound, whereas in Welsh a single F is pronounced as a V, and the Welsh dropped the final "H" in the Cornish Morvah. In both Languages you have to clearly roll the R, as we do here in Scotland, so that's one common link we all have here in the Celtic fringes of these islands.
I forgot to add that Cornish is actually being taught in some schools, and in evening classes, etc, in Cornwall. It is certainly not a widespread activity, and interest is certainly not universal - very much a minority interest, and mainly among a certain group of extreme enthusistas, or so it seems. But pride in Cornwall and a separate Cornish identity certainly IS fairly widespread across the county, and the black and white flag of St Piran, the patron saint of Cornwall, and the official Cornish flag, seems to be fluttering in the Cornish breezes all over the place south of the River Tamar.
<<Cornish is in a slightly different situation as Celtic origin Cornwall is quite distinctly "different" in character from the rest of England, even from neighbouring Devon, which is as Anglo Saxon English a county as any English county can be, in it's scenery as well as its character. Cumbria, however, is very much like any other county in Northern England, even though they do have their own local accent and dialect there. >>
Cornwall does not differ from Devon in any recognisable way that Devon resembles Cumbria, Lincolnshire or inner London. There is no such thing as "Anglo-Saxon" scenery or character. Any particular "special" nature that Cornwall has has to be appreciated purely for what it is, not through imposing some spurious uniformity over everybody else so as to improve the contrast.
Forgive me for contradicting you here but to my mind, now having visited Cornwall twice within a space of 15 months or so, there is quite a noticeable difference between Cornwall and Devon scenically, if we were to exclude Bodmin Moor (in Cornwall) and over the border in Devon - Dartmoor and Exmoor. Maybe there is some similarity, to a degree, between all three moorland tracts of wild open upland countryside, although, from what I could see, both Dartmoor and Exmoor are even more exposed and desolate looking than is Bodmin Moor.
Aside from these moorland areas, Devon looked, to me personally, quite distinctly different from most of Cornwall - the former is much more a county of rich pastureland and quaint little villages and towns (even if most of them are bypassed by the main roads and mororways) - the villages having thatched cottages and close to areas of woodlands in between the gently rolling hills. On the other hand Cornwall is much more open and exposed for the most part, with less in the way of meadows and more in the way of rougher land and with far fewer trees, for one thing. What trees there are all seem to incline in one direction due to the prevailing winds from the Atlantic to the west, and at some points in Cornwall you can actually see the coastline on both sides, the country being a long, narrow(ish) peninsula by and large.
I stick firmly with what I said about Cornish place names - these immediately become apparent more of less as soon as you've crossed over the Tamar Bridge into Cornwall at Saltash. Place names, to me, seemed thoroughly English in Devon - but once in Cornwall the Celtic influence is clear to see in many of the names on the signposts. A lot about Cornwall looks "different" from the rest of England - even down to some of those formidable looking chapels, a clear indication of Cornwall's strong Methodist tradition, something it so evidently has in common with its close relative - Wales.
As a Scot visiting the West Country the differences between Devon and Cornwall were very noticeable, and I've here described some of them. Long may these differences remain. There are, actually, Cornish born people who maintain that they don't actually live in England at all, whatever the status quo dictates.
I used the term "Anglo Saxon" scenery to differentiate from the clear Celtic "Western Britain" fringe appearance of Cornwall. In fact, Anglesey, another part of the Celtic fringe, looks remarkably like Cornwall, but now way resembles most of Devon.
The fact that Cornwall actually has its own separate Language, very closely resembling its first cousin the Welsh Language, speaks volumes, if you'll excuse the pun.
I saw loads and loads of Cornish flags flying aloft all over Cornwall. I don't recall ever seeing a Devonian flag, which I'm sure doesn't exist anyway. They just make do with the English cross of St George, which you can see anywhere else in England - thankfully not ever in Scotland though!! :-) Cheers.
PS: I now feel I could definitely support Independence for Kernow!
Yes, but that was my point. The difference between Cornwall and Devon isn't a difference between Cornwall and England. Because however differnet Cornwall is from Devon, Devon is a lot more different from several other places that count as England. The "English" or "Anglo-Saxon" character of Devon has no essential characteristic it shares with Birmingham, Cumbria, Norfolk etc. It's just part of a *collection* of *different* characters that we club together and call "English". Leaving Cornwall out of this collection makes the argument that it's not part of the collection circular.
Picking up on the other issues, with the exception of the language, none of them are unique. You'll see more Northumberland than England flags in that county, for instance. It's up to Cornish separaists to demonstrate the significance of *their specific* separateness by winning an election or something rather than try to try and prove its import a-priori. And for the language enthusiasts to make sure the language does grow beyond the level of being a hobby among a few to an actual living thing. Given the experience of languages that actually *have* a living tradition, though, this will be an uphill struggle.
Great point. All sections of England are different, marshy in the east, moorland in the south west, and much of the north. Cumbria being mainly volcanic rocks, granites and slates, yorkshire being mainly limestone with some sandstone - they're all different. Yes Cornwall is slightly hotter that much of Britain and attracts more tourists, but Keswick and Borrodale are also different from Lancashire for instance - in fact they're about the same.
I doubt people are automatically going to adjust to the language - but small things such as road signs, and optional classes for Cumbric would encourage its speaking. I think the main problem is is that most of Cumbria/Yorshire, southern Scotland etc - isn't aware that the langauge even exists. This could be changed in schools "if" the Cumbric period of time was to be tought about.
regards
LLiNDen
In reply to Linden's suggestion, posted on September 20th, that someone should try to revive Cumbric in song, I believe that a West Cumbrian 'celtic rock' band called Vortigern is planning to incorporate some ancient Cumbric/Old Welsh into their set.
I'm sure they are aware that they will not be able to reconstruct true Cumbric - but they should be applauded for having a go.
David
From graham
<<a revival of cumbric would be great, but why not go the whole way and declare cumbrian independance? Westminister wouldn't see THAT comming!>>
That would prove to be interesting.The wholr of the uk would be then split into smaller countries.
Talk about Scotland going all "independent"! (Don't worry - it just won't happen - we need London's dosh too much!) No, what I really mean to say is let's disregard reality and concentrate on fantasy.
In the "Dark Ages" - pre 1000AD - much of this island of Britannia consisted of a whole mish-mash of separate entities - kingdoms and regions all unconnected to each other and ruled over by individual rulers, mostly self appointed kings, eg King Aelfred (better known simply as Alfred) who reiged supreme over the Kingdom of Wessex from his throne in what is now the city of Winchester, and covering central southern and southwestern England. In his spare time he let cakes burn in the oven. Then there was Mercia, in western England bordering onto Wales, ruled over by King Offa, who built the famous Dyke as a means of keeping the wild and wooly Welsh at bay. Then there was Cumbria, Northumbria, and East Anglia ruled over by the fearsome Queen Boudicca (also known as Boadicea) who charged across the flatlands of Norfolk and Suffolk (both names meaning "folk from the north" and "folk from the south") slaughtering and plundering every kind of oppostion - a forerunner of a certain Margaret Thatcher you could say.
Middlesex, Essex and Sussex were so named on the same lines as the aforementioned Norfolk and Suffolk - the "-sex" bit in those names meant nothing erotic - it merely refers to "a race of people" - people from the "middle lands", people from the "eastern lands" and people from the "southern lands", which fits perfectly with the geographical locations of Middlesex, Essex and Sussex. Middlesex no longer exists as an independent administrative county - it has since been gobbled up by Greater London, as have been those parts of Essex bordering Greater London, places like Ilford, Walthamstow, Romford etc.
The Celtic fringes value their separate identities - Scotland, Wales, Cornwall. Gaelic (always pronounced as Gallic in Scotland) and Welsh in Wales will become the main means of communication in their respective territories. As will Cornish way down there in Kernow.
So we can all fantastise about going back to our roots again and live separate lives in our little enclaves all over the former United Kingdom. Scotland and Wales will chug along in our happy carefree way, while England fractures and disintegrates completely into all those former Kingdoms all living side by side with each other. England in its own right will no longer exist at all. Ha!
That may well be some kind of impetus for the revival of all those old languages and dialects of old, eg Cumbric.
An utter fantasy, of course....fun to just think about. In reality the idea would be a total nightmare. Where would all that leave us in a European context, for starters?
Thankfully any referendum on independence from the UK here in Scotland will undoubtedly result in a substantial majority AGAINST any such breakaway from the Union. We would stand to lose far too much if it were to happen. We'll make do with our own little (sub) Parliament here in Edinburgh, while still keeping representation in London, which already gives us Scots a fair wee number of advantages over the English. :-) The Welsh likewise in some respects. Let's be content with the status quo...... I have far too many lovely cool English mates to ever want to feel isolated or alienated from them.
from Damian in Edinburgh
<<fearsome Queen Boudicca>>
That's a bit of a long time span isn't it? when boudicca was around all of britain except for northern Scotland by myriad of brythonic celtic tribes,although the picts may have been celts as well.there were no saxons in britain at this time.
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