Uses of the subjunctive in Romance languages

furrykef   Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:29 pm GMT
I'm a learner of Spanish, and I'm curious about how other languages do and don't use the subjunctive through comparison. Here are some examples, with English used to give the meaning for non-Spanish speakers:

Third-person command:
Le dije que lo *haga*. (subjunctive)
I told him to do it.

Note that "Le dije que lo haces", the indicative, would mean "I told him that he does it."

Subjective evaluation:
Es bueno que *seas* feliz. (subjunctive)
It's good that you are happy.

Truth:
Es cierto que *es* grande. (indicative)
It's true that it is big.

Falsehood:
No es cierto que *sea* grande. (subjunctive)
It's not true that it is big.

Hypothetical:
Si yo *fuera* presidente, bajaría los impuestos. (imperfect subjunctive)
If I were president, I would lower taxes.


Here's the sort of thing I'm looking for: I heard that in Italian, a statement such as "Penso che..." ("I think that...") is usually followed by a verb in the subjunctive. In Spanish, the equivalent ("pienso que...") is almost always followed by the indicative. What other contrastive examples are there?

I'd prefer that the responses be written so that they could be understood by somebody like me who speaks only English and Spanish.

- Kef
Adolfo   Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:37 pm GMT
Le dije que lo *haga*. (subjunctive) -----> I think that it is more correct to say : Le dije que lo HICIERA. I've heard your sentence to many native Spanish speakers, but I find it to be wrong. Past tense of the subjunctive should be used instead of the present.
S   Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:51 pm GMT
Kef, how good would you say your Spanish is? would you be able to answer me if I replied to you in Spanish? let's find out. (excuse the accents, I just don't like to use them)

La verdad es que al igual que la mayoria de los angloparlantes, nosotros por lo general no nos preocupamos mucho por usar el termino correcto al describir una oracion (ej. "usa el sustantivo despues de bla, bla, bla") simplemente lo decimos, asi que para no complicarte la vida, mejor dime unas cuantas frases que te gustaria que te traduciera al español, para ver si asi, puedes solucionar tu duda.

Por cierto, tu primera oracion "Le dije que lo haga" aunque bien seria 100% entendida, lo mas correcto seria decir "Le dije que lo hiciera" por que estas hablando en pasado, yo se que al traducirlo al ingles puede ser un poco confuso por que en ingles en este caso pones el verbo en pasado (told) y luego la accion en presente (do), pero en español lo mas propio seria decir ambos (el verbo y la accion) en pasado, saludos.
Adolfo   Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:01 pm GMT
No te preocupes Kef por esos errores digámoslo sutiles, te sorprenderías al ver la cantidad de hispanohablantes (de España al menos) que no utilizan el subjuntivo correctamente. Incluso hay quienes utilizan directamente el infinitivo cuando correspondería usar el subjuntivo. Puede que se trate en realidad de una tendencia en marcha del idioma español hacia la desaparición por completo de éste tiempo verbal, pero eso sería divagar mucho...
Jose   Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:29 pm GMT
<<Le dije que lo *haga*. (subjunctive)
I told him to do it. >>
Solo un apunte. Hay diferencia entre:
Le dije: que lo haga , que lo haga. Como animandole a hacerlo,jeje.
y
Le dije que lo hiciera. Esto es un reported speech puro y duro.

Respecto a si va a desaparecer o no este tiempo, yo creo que no, a no ser que todo el mundo lo use mal. Desaparecerá. ¿Quí lo sa? mom amic.
Adolfo   Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:37 pm GMT
El futuro del subjuntivo (cantare) ya ha despaparecido, solo se usa en fórmulas legalistas.
S   Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:43 pm GMT
Como? como que ya desaparecio? yo si quiero puedo decir "Yo cantaré", que la mayoria de la gente no lo utilize en una conversacion normal, no significa que ya no exista.
Adolfo   Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:57 pm GMT
No, me refiero a yo cantare, no a yo cantaré. El futuro del subjuntivo ha desaparecido del uso cotidiano de la lengua española. Por cierto,¿ no te haces un poco de lío con el futuro perfecto del subjuntivo (hubiere cantado)? A mí me parece que es un tiempo pasado incluso. El futuro del subjuntivo pase, pero el futuro perfecto aún me pregunto cuándo se utiliza.
Jose   Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:19 pm GMT
<<A mí me parece que es un tiempo pasado incluso. El futuro del subjuntivo pase, pero el futuro perfecto aún me pregunto cuándo se utiliza. >>
Mas que desaparecido yo diría se ha sustituido por otro tiempo de subjuntivo. Por ejemplo:
Hubiera suspendido si tu no me hubieres ayudado.
Que se dice:
Hubiera suspendido si tu no me hubieras ayudado.

Como ves la diferencia es minima y se cambia por la concordancia de tiempos. Aparte de que es más facil de decir.
Guest   Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:34 pm GMT
I heard that in Italian, a statement such as "Penso che..." ("I think that...") is usually followed by a verb in the subjunctive.


yes, it's completely true.
In Italian the verb following certain kind of verbs is in subjunctive. You must use only the sunjunctive, it's a logical construction.
The most common are: to think, to believe and similar.
Uncertainity: subjunctive
Certain: indicative
ex:
Penso che tu SIA (2° person - subjunctive of to be) .... : I think you are...: I believe it, I am not sure

Look at these examples:
Credo che Maria SIA arrivata: I think Mary has arrived = I am not sure
Maria è (3° person indicative) arrivata: Mary has arrived = I am sure, I have seen her

BUT:
Credevo (che) AVESSERO (3° peron plural- subjunctive of to have) già preso l'aereo: I believed they had already taken the plane = I was sure/I believed it at that time, but I have discovered now (while I'm speaking) it's not true

There are many uses of this tense and it's quite complicated.
I hope this can help you
furrykef   Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:40 pm GMT
<< Le dije que lo *haga*. (subjunctive) -----> I think that it is more correct to say : Le dije que lo HICIERA. I've heard your sentence to many native Spanish speakers, but I find it to be wrong. Past tense of the subjunctive should be used instead of the present. >>

You're right. This is one of the many rules of Spanish grammar that I know and understand, but often forget to apply. I keep a text file of such rules, and I added this one now. :)


<< Kef, how good would you say your Spanish is? would you be able to answer me if I replied to you in Spanish? let's find out. (excuse the accents, I just don't like to use them) >>

Very well, here's your post translated into English to the best of my abilities. :)

<< The truth is that, like the majority of English speakers, we generally don't worry much about using the correct term when describing a sentence (e.g., 'use the subjunctive after blah blah blah'). We just say it. In order to not complicate your life, it'd be better to tell me a few sentences that you'd like me to translate into Spanish, in order to see if so, you can answer your question. >>

My understanding is not perfect... the end of that last sentence is very clumsily translated. I have to admit I'm not really sure what you want me to do.

<< By the way, your first sentence "Le dije que lo haga", though it'd be 100% understood, it'd be more correct to say "Le dije que lo hiciera" because you're talking in the past tense. I know that translating it into English can be a bit confusing, because in English, in this case, you put the verb in the past tense (told) and the action in the present (do), but in Spanish, the most proper thing would be to say both in the past. >>

All right, I used the wrong tense. I get it. ;)


About the future subjunctive... it's still found in a few fixed phrases: "Donde *fueres*, haz lo que *vieres*." Also, the phrases "sea lo que sea" and "venga lo que venga" can be said "sea lo que fuere" and "venga lo que viniere". There are probably more examples, but I don't know them.

- Kef
Roby_k   Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:23 pm GMT
In Italian there are four kind of subjunctive.


Here the first person with the verb 'to eat' (mangiare):

Present subjunctive: che io mangi

Perfect subjunctive: che io abbia mangiato

Imperfect subjunctive: che io mangiassi

Pluperfect subjunctive: che io avessi mangiato


It's not easy to explain in english "when" and "where" you have to use them.
I just can translate the examples you wrote in english and spanish:

>Third-person command:
>Le dije que lo *haga*. (subjunctive)
>I told him to do it.
Gli dissi di farlo. (Present infinitive)
In italian you can't use subjunctive here.

>Subjective evaluation:
>Es bueno que *seas* feliz. (subjunctive)
>It's good that you are happy.
E' bello che tu sia felice. (Present subjunctive)

>Truth:
>Es cierto que *es* grande. (indicative)
>It's true that it is big.
E' vero che sia grande. (Present subjunctive)
You can use indicative, but it's very informal.

>Falsehood:
>No es cierto que *sea* grande. (subjunctive)
>It's not true that it is big.
Non è vero che sia grande. (Present subjunctive)
You can use indicative, but it's very informal.

>Hypothetical:
>Si yo *fuera* presidente, bajaría los impuestos. (imperfect subjunctive)
>If I were president, I would lower taxes.
Se fossi presidente, abbasserei le tasse. (Imperfect subjunctive)


An example of "Perfect subjunctive":
It's true that it was big.
E' vero che SIA STATO grande.

An example of "Pluperfect subjunctive":
If I were president, I would have lower taxes.
Se FOSSI STATO presidente, avrei abbassato le tasse.


About "Penso che..." ("I think that..."): you can use subjunctive or indicative, but the last one is very very informal (...and ugly, but not wrong).
Roby_k   Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:34 pm GMT
>There are many uses of this tense and it's quite complicated.
>I hope this can help you

Rientra un po' nel discorso che ho fatto nel mio post appena sopra: abbiamo quattro congiuntivi ed è un casino spiegarlo agli stranieri.
In spagnolo e portoghese (lingue che ho studiato) è molto più facile, nonostante alcune eccezioni o irregolarità.

Credo che, oltre alle regole, ci voglia parecchia pratica...
Guest   Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:52 pm GMT
Credo che, oltre alle regole, ci voglia parecchia pratica...

Certo ma qui circola voce che l'italiano SIA facile (come no).
Roby_k   Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:15 pm GMT
>Certo ma qui circola voce che l'italiano SIA facile (come no).

Solitamente quando dicono così (intendo nel mondo reale, non su internet) gli faccio formulare qualche frasettina con pronomi del tipo "GLIENE/GLIELO/ecc..." con qualche congiuntivo annesso... finiscono sempre per darmi inesorabilmente ragione e si vanno a studiare per benino la grammatica.
In testa a tutti gli ispanici, che dopo un paio di mesi credono di parlarlo adeguatamente.. ma non è così e, anzi, è vero il contrario: impariamo più in fretta noi la loro lingua, proprio perché è più semplice.
Buonanotte..