Or did Classical Latin die without leaving descents? I've noted that Italian keeps more words which derive from Classic Latin , compared to Spanish and French. These ones tend to be more vulgar. Is Italian the closest living language to Classical Latin in terms of vocabulary, or other aspects?
Are there Romance languages descending from Classical Latin?
In a way, they all descend from Classical Latin. Vulgar Latin had to come from somewhere.
I say 'in a way' because, strictly speaking, Classical Latin was only a written language, and therefore has no descendants because Romance languages came from the spoken language. But Classical Latin shares many features of Old Latin, which Vulgar Latin came from.
- Kef
I say 'in a way' because, strictly speaking, Classical Latin was only a written language, and therefore has no descendants because Romance languages came from the spoken language. But Classical Latin shares many features of Old Latin, which Vulgar Latin came from.
- Kef
let's keep it simple.
Classical Latin = Written form
Vulgar Latin = Spoken Form
Obviously back then only very few people were educated, therefore what people spoke didn't always follow what was written, therefore all Romantic lLanguages are the written form of what people in those areas spoke.
Did everyone get that?
Classical Latin = Written form
Vulgar Latin = Spoken Form
Obviously back then only very few people were educated, therefore what people spoke didn't always follow what was written, therefore all Romantic lLanguages are the written form of what people in those areas spoke.
Did everyone get that?
"Are there Romance languages descending from Classical Latin? Or did Classical Latin die without leaving descents? "
Latin died indeed, but not without leaving descendants. To stay in the picture: In its prime, Classical Latin married Old Germanic. The children were the many vulgar Latin dialects that were to become standard Portugese, French, Italian and Spanish.
Other Indo-European languages like Gaulish, which remained in use until about the 6th century, died without children, while other languages like Russian, Greek or German are still alive.
Latin died indeed, but not without leaving descendants. To stay in the picture: In its prime, Classical Latin married Old Germanic. The children were the many vulgar Latin dialects that were to become standard Portugese, French, Italian and Spanish.
Other Indo-European languages like Gaulish, which remained in use until about the 6th century, died without children, while other languages like Russian, Greek or German are still alive.
"Gaulish, which remained in use until about the 6th century"
Sure? What about Breton? Isn't it the son of Gaulish?
Sure? What about Breton? Isn't it the son of Gaulish?
Gaulish was a continental Celtic language. Breton is descended from the Brythonic branch of Insular Celtic languages brought by Romano-British settlers to Brittany, perhaps from the end of the 3rd century onwards. The modern-day language most closely related to Breton is Cornish, followed by Welsh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language
Isn't Latin the official language of the Vatican City yet? As in ~not dead~?
Church Latin is not Classical Latin, though. Only hobbyists and linguists speak Classical Latin. I suppose it might be indeed descended from it, though.
- Kef
- Kef
"Isn't Latin the official language of the Vatican City yet? As in ~not dead~? "
Latin is dead because its no one's mother tongue since more than 1200 years, even in the Vatican state.
Latin is dead because its no one's mother tongue since more than 1200 years, even in the Vatican state.
R. Prodi, bonjour,
Ce n'est pas exactement vrai que la langue latine n'ait pas été parlée comme langue maternelle depuis 1.200 années. Dans toutes les époques, mais surtout pendant la Renaissance, il y a eu des gens qui ont élevé leurs enfants en latin.
Michel de Montaigne (celui des Essais), a été élevé en latin. Dans son pays on parlait l'occitan (peut-être quelques nobles étaient déjà passés au français) mais son père a tenu a ce que, depuis son enfance, il parle uniquement latin. C'est pour ça qu'il l'a entouré avec des gens (nourrices, professeurs, instituteurs) qui ne lui parlaient que le latin.
Il va sans dire que le pauvre Michel devait avoir un cercle de rapports très restreint, dans son chateau près de Bergerac.
En arrivant à l'adolescence, selon son propre témoignage, quand il a commencé à avoir des rapports avec le grand monde, il a appris le "périgourdin" (occitan) et le français.
Mais comme, selon un dicton catalan, "el que s'aprèn en el bres, sempre hi és" (ce qu'on apprend au berceau reste à jamais), quand il avait dépassé les vingt ans, et se trouvant avec son père, celui-ci a été frappé d'un malaise et il est tombé à terre "pâmé".
Son fils l'a accouru, très ému, et n'a été capable de lui parler qu'en latin.
La langue de son enfance lui est revenue. Pour lui, la langue "naturelle" était le latin.
Évidamment, le cas de Michel de Montaigne était une exception mais, en fait on ne peut jamais dire qu'une langue est morte: on l'emploie ou on ne l'emploie pas. L'hébreu a été remis en usage, avec le plus grand succès et, avec beaucoup mons de succès, le cornique, langue celte de Cornouaille très proche du breton et "éteinte" vers la moitié du XIXème siècle.
En Inde, il y a des miliers d'enfants qui sont élevés en sanscrit, une langue aussi "morte" pour les gens du pays que le latin l'est pour nous.
De toute façon, il m'est déjà arrivé des choses amusantes avec le latin. Je le parle juste un petit peu. Pour ayer mes études, j'ai travaillé comme guide touristique. Une fois, il me sont arrivés trois touristes qui ont eu l'air de ne pas comprendre ce que je leur disais, ni en français, ni en anglais, ni en allemand, ni en espagnol. Ils étaient finlandais.
En désespoir de cause, j'ai demandé a l'un d'eux "Latine loqueris?". Il m'a répondu "Ita, domne, latine loquor". On s'est compris fort bien.
En Alemagne, en Italie et dans d'autres pays, il y a des émissions de radio en latin.
Ce n'est pas exactement vrai que la langue latine n'ait pas été parlée comme langue maternelle depuis 1.200 années. Dans toutes les époques, mais surtout pendant la Renaissance, il y a eu des gens qui ont élevé leurs enfants en latin.
Michel de Montaigne (celui des Essais), a été élevé en latin. Dans son pays on parlait l'occitan (peut-être quelques nobles étaient déjà passés au français) mais son père a tenu a ce que, depuis son enfance, il parle uniquement latin. C'est pour ça qu'il l'a entouré avec des gens (nourrices, professeurs, instituteurs) qui ne lui parlaient que le latin.
Il va sans dire que le pauvre Michel devait avoir un cercle de rapports très restreint, dans son chateau près de Bergerac.
En arrivant à l'adolescence, selon son propre témoignage, quand il a commencé à avoir des rapports avec le grand monde, il a appris le "périgourdin" (occitan) et le français.
Mais comme, selon un dicton catalan, "el que s'aprèn en el bres, sempre hi és" (ce qu'on apprend au berceau reste à jamais), quand il avait dépassé les vingt ans, et se trouvant avec son père, celui-ci a été frappé d'un malaise et il est tombé à terre "pâmé".
Son fils l'a accouru, très ému, et n'a été capable de lui parler qu'en latin.
La langue de son enfance lui est revenue. Pour lui, la langue "naturelle" était le latin.
Évidamment, le cas de Michel de Montaigne était une exception mais, en fait on ne peut jamais dire qu'une langue est morte: on l'emploie ou on ne l'emploie pas. L'hébreu a été remis en usage, avec le plus grand succès et, avec beaucoup mons de succès, le cornique, langue celte de Cornouaille très proche du breton et "éteinte" vers la moitié du XIXème siècle.
En Inde, il y a des miliers d'enfants qui sont élevés en sanscrit, une langue aussi "morte" pour les gens du pays que le latin l'est pour nous.
De toute façon, il m'est déjà arrivé des choses amusantes avec le latin. Je le parle juste un petit peu. Pour ayer mes études, j'ai travaillé comme guide touristique. Une fois, il me sont arrivés trois touristes qui ont eu l'air de ne pas comprendre ce que je leur disais, ni en français, ni en anglais, ni en allemand, ni en espagnol. Ils étaient finlandais.
En désespoir de cause, j'ai demandé a l'un d'eux "Latine loqueris?". Il m'a répondu "Ita, domne, latine loquor". On s'est compris fort bien.
En Alemagne, en Italie et dans d'autres pays, il y a des émissions de radio en latin.
But this "hanging on/clinging to" of Latin is due to 'sentimental/pursuit of leisure' reasons, and not because it is actually alive.
Were it not for the fact that Latin has been well preserved, and highly esteemed as a literary/historical language, it would not continue to be spoken at all.
'Extant' does not equate to 'Living'.
Were it not for the fact that Latin has been well preserved, and highly esteemed as a literary/historical language, it would not continue to be spoken at all.
'Extant' does not equate to 'Living'.
">Latin died indeed, but not without leaving descendants. To stay in the picture: In its prime, Classical Latin married Old Germanic. The children were the many vulgar Latin dialects that were to become standard Portugese, French, Italian and Spanish.<"
Classical latin married Celtic tongues you mean, because some of the Romance languages only possess 'petite' remnants of Germanic influence.
Overall:
Portuguese = Influenced highly by celtic / arabic tongues
French = strongly influenced by celtic / germanic tongues.
Italian = so-so influenced by germanic tongues
Spanish = Influenced by greek / arabic / basque / celtic
P.ss. You read it here.
Classical latin married Celtic tongues you mean, because some of the Romance languages only possess 'petite' remnants of Germanic influence.
Overall:
Portuguese = Influenced highly by celtic / arabic tongues
French = strongly influenced by celtic / germanic tongues.
Italian = so-so influenced by germanic tongues
Spanish = Influenced by greek / arabic / basque / celtic
P.ss. You read it here.
">Latin died indeed, but not without leaving descendants. To stay in the picture: In its prime, Classical Latin married Old Germanic. The children were the many vulgar Latin dialects that were to become standard Portugese, French, Italian and Spanish.<" "
Jordi
<<Classical latin married Celtic tongues you mean, because some of the Romance languages only possess 'petite' remnants of Germanic influence. >>
Lets say that Classical Latin first married or coexisted with Celtic tongues. But this couple seems not to have been fecond, since at the end of the Roman empire most of the Celtic was extinct in Gallia and Iberia and classical Latin was in use by the mass population.
Several authors at the end of the Roman empire from the 3rd to the 6th century mentioned that Latin was still well understood by the masses. For example, Pope Gregor the Great assumed as late as 600 that his sermons written in classical Latin were understood by the simple people; everything speaks for the fact that only in the 8. Century Classical Latin and the Romance languages were noticed as different languages. As epochal date the council of Tours in the year 813 is often considered, on which it was decided to permit from now on lectures in „the people languages “since the believers would understand no more Latin.
At the same time when Romance languages emerged, between 6.th and 8.th Century, Celtic was already totally extinct. On the other hand, this is the time when Germanic mass invasions by settlers, colonists and worriors were at a maximum level. So it must be assumed that the genesis of Romance must be closely linked to the Germanic invasions and not to the Celtic populations conquered by Ceasar and his predecessors. Perhaps the Celtics disappeared to great parts together with their language leaving only minor traces in toponyms, a little bit like the indigenous American-Indian populations in the US and Canada.
Jordi
<<Classical latin married Celtic tongues you mean, because some of the Romance languages only possess 'petite' remnants of Germanic influence. >>
Lets say that Classical Latin first married or coexisted with Celtic tongues. But this couple seems not to have been fecond, since at the end of the Roman empire most of the Celtic was extinct in Gallia and Iberia and classical Latin was in use by the mass population.
Several authors at the end of the Roman empire from the 3rd to the 6th century mentioned that Latin was still well understood by the masses. For example, Pope Gregor the Great assumed as late as 600 that his sermons written in classical Latin were understood by the simple people; everything speaks for the fact that only in the 8. Century Classical Latin and the Romance languages were noticed as different languages. As epochal date the council of Tours in the year 813 is often considered, on which it was decided to permit from now on lectures in „the people languages “since the believers would understand no more Latin.
At the same time when Romance languages emerged, between 6.th and 8.th Century, Celtic was already totally extinct. On the other hand, this is the time when Germanic mass invasions by settlers, colonists and worriors were at a maximum level. So it must be assumed that the genesis of Romance must be closely linked to the Germanic invasions and not to the Celtic populations conquered by Ceasar and his predecessors. Perhaps the Celtics disappeared to great parts together with their language leaving only minor traces in toponyms, a little bit like the indigenous American-Indian populations in the US and Canada.