Why doesn't English have Masculine and Feminine genders?
<<<<guest, you do realize that just such a word exists - "they" - do you ? >>
>>
also, in this context, where the possessive is used, [they]/"their" is the usual fill-in, but "they" would not universally work in the sense of "he/she"; "him/her"...for example:
"The valedictorian may attend, and he/she may bring a friend"
vs.
"The valedictorian may attend, and they may bring a friend" --who is "they"??? Others besides the valedictorian???
"The valedictorian may attend, and I may see him/her there"
vs.
"The valedictorian may attend, and I may see them there" --"them"??? again, this changes the meaning of the sentence.
So "they" will not do.
...cont.
However, the following could fit the bill:
"The valedictorian may attend, and *thee*[i.e. 'that one'] may bring a friend."
and
"The valedictorian may attend, and I may see *tham* there."
<< "They" is being used to fill the gap, but it's illogical and make-shift at best.
I believe we can and should do better... >>
I agree with the "can" part, but not with the "should", if you mean we should actually try to put it into practice. Proposals like that one always sound ludicrous. I also don't really know why every proposal, whether serious or fanciful, seems to propose an odd case system. What's wrong with using the same form for nominative and objective, and simply adding an "s" to the possessive, which "it" already does? It makes a much nicer model than who/whom/whose, especially since many people don't even use "whom" anymore (and sometimes when I do see it, it's used incorrectly).
And, speaking of "it", a proposal that would sound much less absurd to ears already accustomed to today's English is simply appopriating "it" to refer to people as well as things. But even that wouldn't go over very well... I think there's just no point to taking this stuff seriously. But it's fun to think about for the sake of argument. English is certainly not without its flaws...
- Kef
<< "The valedictorian may attend, and he/she may bring a friend"
vs.
"The valedictorian may attend, and they may bring a friend" --who is "they"??? Others besides the valedictorian??? >>
Some people do use "they" that way, although I admit it does sound a bit awkward sometimes. I don't think the ambiguity is a problem, though. There are plenty of sentences that we say every day that are at least as ambiguous -- but they're not ambiguous in the surrounding context.
And for this particular sentence, there's a third option: simply omitting the pronoun. Unfortunately, it's difficult to reword the second sentence to avoid the pronoun, so of course avoiding using a pronoun isn't always a realistic solution.
- Kef
One question to the native speakers:
If English had two genders only (masculine and feminine) which one would you give to the following words:
God
Evil
Earth
Nature
Madness
Happiness
Weather
Kwnoledge
Intelligence
Country
Land
Ship
Car
Motorcycle
Airplane
Book
Flower
Butterfly
Computer
Book
Table
Bed
Kitchen
Washing Machine
TV
A pointless but interesting question...I'll give it a go..
God - Masc
Evil - Fem
Earth- Fem
Nature- Fem
Madness- Fem
Happiness- Fem
Weather - Masc
Knowledge- Fem
Intelligence- Fem
Country- Fem
Land - Masc
Ship - Masc
Car - Masc
Motorcycle - Masc
Airplane - Fem
Book- Fem
Flower- Fem
Butterfly- Fem
Computer
Book- Fem
Table- Fem
Bed - Masc
Kitchen- Fem
Washing Machine - Fem
TV - Masc
...and the reason for each is this: Those I marked as Fem were Fem in the language of their origin (Country<contrata, Nature < Natura, Evil <yfelo (could be masc too: yfel, but nouns of quality in Old English were usually feminine)
Those as Masc were either Masc or Neut (Land, Weather, ship) where Neut is closer to Masc than to Fem (cf. the togetherfalling of Masc & Neut in Romance)
In compound words, gender goes with final element: Washing Machine, Airplane (<F aéroplane fem) as in Old English
...cont.
in the above, 'car' could also be fem < French 'carre' < 'carra' fem alt.
otherwise I have cited 'carrus' as the origin
...cont.
Ooops, 'TV' should be Feminine...I mis-pasted the "- Masc" there
Computer is Masc due to the -er suffix (agent)
Guest : « One question to the native speakers: If English had two genders only (masculine and feminine) which one would you give to the following words: (...) ».
On peut considérer que l'anglais (comme l'allemand, le castillan et le français) possède quatre genre sémantiques : masculin sémantique, féminin sémantique, neutre faible sémantique & neutre fort sémantique.
Voici comment les mots que tu proposes peuvent être distribués :
MASCULINS SÉMANTIQUES → aucun, à part peut-être <god> s'il s'agit d'une catégorie d'être anthropomorphisé (et virilisé dans le cas des monothéismes)
FÉMININS SÉMANTIQUES → aucun
NEUTRES FAIBLES SÉMANTIQUES → 1] <butterfly>, si l'on considère un papillon (ou plusieurs) en particulier (l'espèce peut être envisagée comme un neutre fort sémantique — 2] peut-être <flower> mais je n'en suis pas sûr
NEUTRES FORTS SÉMANTIQUES → tous (sauf <god> s'il s'agit d'un super être humain)
Here's my list:
God -m
Evil -m
Earth -f
Nature -f
Madness -m
Happiness -m
Weather -m
Knowledge -m
Intelligence -m
Country -m
Land -m
Ship -f
Car -f
Motorcycle -f
Airplane -f
Book -m
Flower -m
Butterfly -m
Computer -m
Book -m
Table -m
Bed -m
Kitchen -m
Washing Machine -m
TV -m
Rationale: God gets to be male because there is already a feminine version of the word (goddess). Earth, Nature, and vehicles get to be female due to traditional poetic genders. Everything else is masculine based on the old English-language principle of If You Don't Know, It's Male By Default Until Otherwise Informed, an arbitrary practice that doesn't bother me at all, personally, even though I am female myself.
And I think all this illustrates why it's so nice that we don't have arbitrary genders in English....
Coach Sauers: (reading) Treat every player as if he/she were... What the hell is this he/she? Some kind of a science fiction thing?!
-From "King of the Hill"
Josh Lalonde : « What's the distinction between the two neuters? Living vs. non-living? ».
Oui, mais avant tout "sexué" (sans qu'on connaisse le sexe ou que cette connaissance ait une importance quelconque) vs "asexué". Comme le sexe est l'apanage des êtres vivants, on peut effectivement le reformuler ainsi que tu le disais.
Mais dans un cas comme <les papillons>, si tu évoques une volée de papillons qui virevoltent autour de toi, il s'agira d'un neutre faible (sémantique) : à moins de savoir avec certitude que tous ces insectes sont femelles (ou males), tu supposes qu'ils sont des deux sexes ou que la distinction de sexe n'est pas pertinente. Si en revanche tu utilises <les papillons> pour signifier *l'espèce* des lépidoptères, on peut considérer que cette *abstraction* est un neutre fort (sémantique). Mais si <les papillons> désigne {tous les papillons de la Terre}, on peut estimer qu'il s'agit là encore d'un neutre faible (sémantique) puisque c'est tous et chacun des papillons réels (ici et mintenant) auxquels tu fais à présent référence.
Tu vois, on peut affiner à l'infini...
Uriel : « Rationale: God gets to be male because there is already a feminine version of the word (goddess). »
¡ Hola ! Sí, pero el empleo no es exactamente lo mismo. Cuando se reza la divinidad monoteísta tradicional, la gente dice <Dios> o <Dieu> o <God> pero los creyentes no dicen ni *<Diosa> ni *<Déesse> ni *<Goddess> (con mayúsculas). ¿ Por qué ? Se puede que ellos piensan que la suya divinidad es un ser antropomórfico de sexo masculino (→ masculino fuerte semántico) o bien que es una entitad no humana (→ neutro fuerte semántico). En este último caso, <Dios> = <Dieu> = <God> no es el simétrico de <diosa> = <déesse> = <goddess> (con minúsculas).
Yeah, but in everyday usage, god would be masculine and goddess would be the feminine equivalent, i.e "gods and goddesses of Greek mythology". However, I could see quibbling that you could collectively call them all "gods" and get away with it, just as "actor" can refer to both male and female thespians despite the coexistance of the specifically feminine "actress". However, by the Unknown Gender Rule, an unidentified "god" would still be male by default. Regardless of traditional Catholic teaching....