Language Mistakes in 2 Orders

I think language mistakes can be divided into 2 orders:

1) A mistake as a result of fumbling over a word, or having a lapse of the tongue, etc., I would say falls into the first order of language mistakes.

2) A mistake as a result of ignorance with regards to the correct form, so the person attempted to invent a new form, or not knowing how to pronounce, so the pronunciation was made up, I would say falls into the second order of language mistakes.

I think the first order of language mistakes would be considered acceptable to Antimoon's owners, because even native speakers make it, and it probably is most common when you are not used to speaking in a language. One should get over their fear of making a mistake of the first order to learn the language.

I think the second order of language mistakes would be considered unacceptable to Antimoon's owners, and should be avoided at all costs, because it would help to build bad habits in the use of the language. A person who has barely heard the language at all is most in danger of making mistakes of the second order and should get substantial input so they are not forced to make mistakes of the second order.

When you are told, "Don't be afraid of speaking," when you know that your speaking practice would be full of mistakes of the second order, you should be aware that the giver of such advice is the devil. Of course, once one would know that mistakes of the second order aren't at issue anymore because you know the language quite well, then you should not be afraid of making mistakes of the first order, as they could be instructive--just be sure to have good feedback.

Yeah, you are probably right. But people do not have ample time and patience at their disposal for learning everything like a child. What is the purpose of using or speaking a language after a wait of five years with no active practice so that one can function in the language like a native speaker?

People need instant results in no time. They are going to speak/use the language. They are going to make mistakes and these mistakes are un-avoidable. Also, the issue of reinforcing bad habits is open for a debate and is very much disputable. As long as you are being exposed to the language and aware of your mistakes, you are going to overide them over a period of time. Just be conscious and notice things along the way.

I started writing English when I had no ample input at my disposal or in other words when I was a beginner. My case was an antithesis of Antimoon's philosophy. I made a lot of mistakes but they had never become permanent. My writing skills were improved. And I had partaken in so many interesting discussion on a variety of topics online. I was not held back because I was not perfect. The key thing is to take risks and learn from them. Can you please suggest me how many mistakes did I make in this post? I have never stopped writing in the English language since 2002 when I was a beginner. My motto is simple: accumulate the language as much as you can on a regular basis and use it frequently, that's all and you'll improve. I do not believe in silent period crap. Just wait for something to crop up like a jewel from out of nowhere.

Guest,

Maybe. Another thing I'm considering in language learning, is "linguistic iconoclasm," where you complete throw out your previous perception of a language to replace it with another, more perfect perception, sort of like Beethoven's 9th symphony, where the terror fanfare was used to completely throw out what came before.

Your English as written is error-free and has the style of a native speaker.

His English is error-free? What about these?

"People need instant results in no time."

Using both "instant" and "in no time" is redundant and sounds unnatural.

"And I had partaken in so many interesting discussion on a variety of topics online."

"discussions", not "discussion".

"Can you please suggest me how many mistakes did I make in this post?"

"tell" would be more appropriate than "suggest". "Suggest me" is a non-native usage. "did I make" should be "I made".

It depends on the person, it's also like children... some start speaking very early and do lots of mistakes, or just say a few words, others just speak well whenever they start speaking.

I know people who, like, over 3 months in the country spoke the language fairly well, while others have lived here for almost 15 years and don't speak the language well at all! They just keep making the same mistakes over and over and never get better. They're pleased to just be understood and that's it for them... it seems so.

<<His English is error-free? What about these? >>

It's still pretty darned impressive, even if it doesn't quite sound like it was written by a native speaker. Some aspects of Guest's English are better than mine. I'd never use words like "antithesis" or "partaken", for example.

"People need instant results in no time."

I've heard something similar on tvshop, lol.

<<I'd never use words like "antithesis" or "partaken", for example.>>

His "an antithesis" usage is somewhat unusual, though. Normally, one would say "the antithesis".

beneficii , I didn't get the point of your message. Do you want us to discuss how many kinds of mistakes there are?

I have found one, I hope you don't mind my correcting:
IMHO "Don't be afraid of speaking" should be "Don't be afraid to speak".
It's a very common mistake. I think you can easily find out when we use the infinitive or gerund with "to be afraid".

Did those mistakes hamper my communication? No, they didn't. I was able to share my thoughts. I was succussful. My purpose of learning a foreign language was fulfilled. I was not precluded from participating with others even though I was not perfect. I was bored with English learning so I had been out of touch in the language for months. Once I get back to listening, reading and writing, I'll override those mistakes. I was somewhat familiar with my mistakes like "the" goes with "antithesis". I have no fears. I'll fix those mistakes with enough exposure. What I am saying is that I am not going to write "an anthesis" all my life. The myth of reinforcing bad habits which is purported by Antimoon's owners has no true value to it. As long as you are an observant of the language, you'll fix your errors. This has been my experience. Learn and trial error is the way to go but make sure you spend more time on input than ouput. Your learning should not look like this: 3 hours of output and one hour of input. It should be the other way around. But I do not discourage students from indulging in the language actively.

I am aware of Stephen Krashen's theories and ALG's purported methods. To be honest, I have no stamina and predilection for putting their theories and methods into practice. My intuitive nature and time restrictions do not go hand in hand with them. I am happy with my own method. I am one of the laziest and non-serious students ever lived on this planet. I have no discipline for language learning yet I am somewhat sucsessful....so I am def doing somethign right.

I just do not know how someone can listen to 1000 hours of comprehensible input without uttering a single sentence in their target language. Such recalcitrant methods require similar students as well. I am too impatient by nature and can't be silent. So such methods/theories go out of window for me and I am not sure how many students can implement them to their true sense. For me "trial and error" method works so I have no qualms whatsoever.

I didn't mean to suggest that the errors hampered your communication, but I wanted to point out that you weren't absolutely perfect. Of course, not even native speakers never make mistakes (of either of the two types mentioned in the original post).

Guest #2 (I think),

Yeah, with the first guest's errors I allowed for typos, missed words (I'm the queen of that), changing the sentence in the middle of the sentence (i.e. changing the last part of the sentence, but forgetting to change the first part of it to match, etc.). Something about his English still seemed natural and smooth. Now, that last sentence with the "suggest" instead of "tell" and the inclusion of "did", now that's a doozy. I don't know why people keep making those types of errors. They should just stop and get some more input before they hurt themselves.

Anyway, I think it still stands.

Now, how to break someone's bad habits? I'd employ iconoclasm, throwing out the old ways of speaking (even if you stop speaking) and continuing to receive massive input.

Though my Japanese this time I am going to Japan is not perfect (grr, I still hate making mistakes, so I stop speaking), compared to last time, I seemed to be doing a bit less of the "let's play the grind-sentences-out-like-a-rusty-old-machine-using-grammatical-explanations-from-my-native-language-and-a-bilingual-dictionary-game. and am a bit more natural and smooth (probably due to the massive input I've been receiving compared to last time); I also seem to use now completely different kinds of sentences from before. Basically, I plan to go silent again when I get home and continue to receive massive amounts of input in Japanese.

"People need instant results in no time."

Such a statement might be redundant but it is still grammatically sound.