spanish and italian

Henk   Saturday, January 22, 2005, 21:24 GMT


Dutch-speaking people can ( mostly) understand Frisian and vica versa... ( Frisian is probably more related to Dutch than English )
Xatufan   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 03:52 GMT
The last post with my name wasn't mine. I didn't write that. Somebody used my name and wrote those things in Occitan. This has happen to me before...

The Catalan text was about Miroku, a character of the Japanese series "InuYasha". I copied it to prove Jordi's theory (you're a genius, Jordi).

The song in PS3 is extremely famous. It has crossed the Atlantic! It's called "Dragostea din tei". I don't understand why it is so famous. The other parts of the song don't make sense at all, but if you want it, I'll copy it:


Alo, Salut, sunt eu, un haiduc,
Si te rog, iubirea mea, primeste fericirea.
Alo, alo, sunt eu Picasso,
Ti-am dat beep, si sunt voinic,
Dar sa stii nu-ti cer nimic.

Vrei sa pleci dar nu ma, nu ma iei,
Nu ma, nu ma iei, nu ma, nu ma, nu ma iei.
Chipul tau si dragostea din tei,
Mi-amintesc de ochii tai.

Te sun, sa-ti spun, ce simt acum,
Alo, iubirea mea, sunt eu, fericirea.
Alo, alo, sunt iarasi eu, Picasso,
Ti-am dat beep, si sunt voinic,
Dar sa stii nu-ti cer nimic.

Vrei sa pleci dar nu ma, nu ma iei,
Nu ma, nu ma iei, nu ma, nu ma, nu ma iei.
Chipul tau si dragostea din tei,
Mi-amintesc de ochii tai.


I don't see a relationship between the chorus and the other parts of the song. It doesn't make any sense at all (or at least I don't see it!).

Italian is more complicated to pronounce than Spanish because Italian has a difference b/v, s/ss (except in the south) and open and close 'e' and 'o' (é/è; ó/ò). Spanish doesn't have those things.

I don't see Catalan as a mixture of Spanish and French. I don't speak it, but I understand it in its written form (I've never heard spoken Catalan). I want to cross the Atlantic and go to Gran Via de les Corts Catalanes. That avenue looks pretty in my map, and the circle where G.V. de les C.C., Avinguda Meridiana and Avinguda Diagonal cross, is beautiful and has a magnific style (I saw that on my map)
Xatufan   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 04:01 GMT
Toulouse is the capital of Midi-Pyrénées, but it's still in Languedoc!!! The French president who made that territorial division was crazy!!!

Avignon is in Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur. But my French teacher says that it's in Languedoc too!!! I think they should have created administrative regions according to the name of the place!!!
Ed   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 04:50 GMT
Garota de Ipanema,

What about lh combination?
Gui   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 08:27 GMT
Mon amic, Xatufan, I was going to congratulate you on your impressive knowledge and interest in Occitan, but now you say that you did not write that post. Ah well, whoever wrote it, I am curious where your story came from.

<<Toulouse is the capital of Midi-Pyrénées, but it's still in Languedoc!!! The French president who made that territorial division was crazy!!!>>

It was Louis XIII who first divided the province of Languedoc in order to weaken the power of the Languedocien governors. The governor of Languedoc, the popular duke of Montmorency rebelled against the king, but he was defeated and beheaded in Toulouse. After that incident Languedoc was divided into 2 "généralités": Haut-Languedoc and Bas-Languedoc, but the capital of the entire "gouvernement" of Languedoc was moved from Toulouse to Montpellier to diminish the power and influence of Toulouse.

After the Revolution, the provinces of France were divided into régions and départements in order to erase loyalties based on old feudal ties and concentrate all loyalties to Paris. The old province of Languedoc was divided between 4 régions, the majority of Languedoc was combined with Roussillon to form Languedoc-Roussillon, while pays Toulousain went to the Midi-Pyrénéss, the Ardèche to the Rhône-Alps, and Haute-Loire to Auvergne.

<<Avignon is in Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur. But my French teacher says that it's in Languedoc too!!! I think they should have created administrative regions according to the name of the place!!!>>

I'm afraid your French teacher isn't quite right. Avignon lies at the crossroads of Provence and Languedoc and was a free city for many years before it was conquered by France and given to Provence as punishment for supporting the Cathars. It was later given to the Counts of Toulouse, but fell into the hands of the Kings of Sicily, then sold to the Pope, and remained with the papacy until the Revolution. Despite its history of switching ownership, it lies on the east bank of the river Rhône (in Occitan: Rose), falling into Provençal territory. Even its language is more prouvençau than lengadocian. On the other hand, in Nîmes and to a lesser extent Montpellier, the brand of Occitan the people speak is heavily prouvençau but because these cities lie west of the Rhône, they are regarded as languedocian cities. Also worth pointing out is that directly across the Rhône from Avignon is a town called Villeneuve-lès-Avignon, which despite its name, because is situated west of the river falls into languedocian territory.
Jordi   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 08:28 GMT
According to the Ethnologue these would be the lexical similarities. I haven't found their definition of "lexical similarities" but I imagine they mean "basic vocabulary" and the fact that words are recognisable without being the same:
These would be the similarities of SPANISH regarding other Romance languages.
89% lexical similarity with Portuguese, 85% with Catalan, 82% with Italian, 76% with Sardinian, 75% with French, 74% with Rheto-Romance, 71% with Rumanian.

Dialects of the same language usually share similarities in the upper 90% range. As an example Central Catalan (according to the Ethnologue) shares from 90 to 95% with the Valencian dialects of Catalan. In that range we'd be speaking of dialects of a language although other political or sociological factors may interfere (Easterner knows very well what I mean with some Slavic languages)

Regarding FRENCH lexical similarities with German and English I had a a small surprise. Look at what it says in the Etnologue. One would have though English would have much more but everybody knows that the "basic" English words tends to be Germanic as you will see later on:
29% with German, 27% with English.

Regarding ENGLISH it also is very interesting, since it proves the point that its basic vocabulary is mainly Germanic and that it shares as much with French as basic German does and it's interesting to see what happens with Russian although the Ethnologue has no lexical similarities figures for Slavic languages. It's either a French or a German influence in Russian. Perhaps French?
ENGLISH has 60% lexical similarity with German, 27% with French, 24% with Russian.
Jordi   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 08:29 GMT
would have thought
words tend
Gui   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 08:35 GMT
FYI: did you know that in German, the Rhône/Rose is called "Rotten"? Macarèl!
Jordi   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 08:36 GMT
Dear Xatufan:
If you want to listen to Online Catalunya Ràdio this is the link. Press the button where it says "Catalunya Ràdio en directe" or "L'últim butlletí de Catalunya Ràdio" (The last news).

http://www.catradio.com/internet/
Jordi   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 08:48 GMT
Occitan: Amic Gui, Soi catalan e as raison. Ara, en catalan disiám Roine e en castelhan dison Ródano. (Rhône en francés)
Català: Amic Gui, sóc català e tens raó. Ara, en català diem Roine i en castellà diuen Ródano. (Rhône en francès)
French: Ami Gui, je suis catalan et tu as raison. Maintenant, en catalan nous disons Roine et en castillan (espagnol) ils disent Ródano. (Rhône en français)
Spanish: Amigo Gui, soy catalán y tienes razón. Ahora, en catalán decimos Roine y en castellano Ródano (Rhône en francés).
English: Gui my friend, I'm Catalan and you're right. Now, in Catalan we say Roine and in Spanish they say Ródano (Rhône in French).

You will be able to see that although Occitan and Catalan are close,, Occitan is sometimes closer to Spanish "soi/soy", French "as raison", whilst Catalan can sometimes be closer to Spanish "tens raó" "tienes razón" (use of "tenir" here instead of "haver").
Ron   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 10:20 GMT
"ENGLISH has 60% lexical similarity with German, 27% with French, 24% with Russian."

I find this most surprising especially the Russian part. I suppose by lexical similarity they mean in the way words are constructed, since hardly any English words come from Russian and most come from Romance languages and Latin.
Jordi   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 10:52 GMT
Ron:
French gave a lot of words to all European languages from the 17th to the 20th century (culture, cuisine). Spanish also gave words from the 16th to the 18th (war, the sea), Italian also gave words in other fields, etc. I think that what it probably means is that European languages now probably share 25% of words due to exchange in the past centuries. Perhaps somebody knowing Russian and Slavic languages can tell us how many loan words they have from other Western European languages. Apart from that all European languages have their share of latinisms, germanisms, celtisms. Some of these date from the Roman times and from the Germanic invasions.
What this tells us is that European are more closely related than they tend to think. It's always easier to adopt words than structures.
Garota de Ipanema   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 16:03 GMT
Well, Ed asked me about the pronunciation of LH in Brazilian Portuguese...

Most of us pronounce it like a L+Y combination (L in Lip + Y in Yes):

velha (Vélya) old (f).
ilha (ílya) island


(Some people use the contracted form (like LL in European Spanish and GL in Italian), but most of them are old people.)

Y in L+Y is normally silent when followed by an open E, so we have a plain L here:

mulher [mu'lE(h)] woman
Guilherme [gi'lEhmi] Guilherme (man's name)

Rural accents have Y instead of L+Y, so LH is pronounced like Y [j], but unlike Latin American Spanish, this Y (yeismo) pronunciation is considered rural, and you won't find this pronunciation is speech of middle class and/or upperclass people. Still, some regions are more yeismo-friendly, so yeismo is accepted in Brasília (Brazil's capital) slang... (Velho = véio, meaning my old chap, mate ))
Xatufan   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 21:23 GMT
I don't know but sometimes when I want to say 'word' in French, I forget 'mot' and I say 'parole' (from Latin 'parabola', Sp. 'palabra' and It. 'parola' have the same origin). I used to think that my brain had invented 'parole' (obviously my brain adapted it from the Italian word 'parola'), until the other day when I saw the expression 'porte-parole'. Does 'parole' exist in French? Or am I crazy?

2) 'Chocolat' is a French Spanish word. (From the Nahuatl 'xocoatl', frothy water).
Easterner   Sunday, January 23, 2005, 22:05 GMT
Xatufan,

The word "parole" exists in French, but it basically means something like "spoken word" or "utterance", not "word" in the syntactic sense. It can also refer to the lyrics of a song.