Greg,
Nasalization of the Portuguese language is not something that brazilians invented. European Portuguese is already a language with many nasal sounds. Everybody who objectively listens to European Portuguese for the first time, without having to be an expert in phonetics, will immediately realize how nasal it is. The portuguese linguists did not decide to put the sign ~ on the diphthongs 'ão', ‘ãe’ and 'ões' out of boredom or in order to make them look more beautiful, but to indicate that the vowels are nasalized. There are also many other nasal vowels in Portuguese which are not orthographically indicated. Brazilian Portuguese has the same nasal sounds as European Portuguese, but with the difference that they are more strongly enunciated, to the extent that they may sound exaggerated or unnatural for someone who first learned the european variant. An explanation might be that archaich Portuguese had stronger nasal sounds, and they survive in Brazilian Portuguese nowadays. I am just speculating. I could think of other unobjective explanations. Whether the exaggerated nasalization of Brazilian Portuguese (in my opinion stronger than in French) is beautiful, sexy, etc., is quite a different question. That was not the point of my message. I just wrote it is exaggerated.
As to Polish, I am not an expert in that language. But a polish colleague of mine told me that there are nasal sounds in Polish, e.g in mięta (En mint).
A Little Clarity
I don't know Portuguese but managed to understand the posts in that language as I can read French and Spanish.
This entire thread seems to beg for a bit of clarification. To begin with, the question is not limited to Portuguese.
Linguists have long tried to define the difference between a language and a dialect. "Popular wisdom" would say that dialects (at least geographically adjacent ones) are mutually intelligible and that, when they grow apart to the point that they are not, they become different languages.
Unfortunately, things aren't that simple.
An Arabic speaker from North Africa cannot converse with an Iraqi. They can read the same newspaper (more or less).
The so-called dialects of Chinese are not mutually intelligible. Again, the written language unifies them.
I know Spanish speakers who can hold a conversation with Portuguese speakers. Some Skandinavians (Danes and Swedes, if I recall) can converse pretty freely.
Even Brits and Yanks get by most (but not all) of the time.
Major vocabulary differences exist in various parts of the US.
What is Flemish?
Don't Scots speak English (you don't have to answer that)? Why, even the Brits come reasonably close.
With these and many other facts in mind, some linguists have been know to assert that the difference between a language and a dialect is an army.
In other words, this whole debate is not a linguistic one and the quasi-linguistic arguments for a Brazilian language are less than weak.
Put simply, this is a socio-political (or, if you will, nationalistic) argument - not a linguistic one.
You are quite right about what constitutes dialects or languages Outsider. I've even read that some linguists still try to group Portuguese and Spanish as dialects of each other because of the mutual intelligability of course this is not my opinion and I'm rather biased about this since I grew up with both languages.
>>Huchu<<
I should of clarified myself a little more when I wrote that since I got all of those angry responses out of the Brazilian writers. I wasn't trying to say that all acting and music was done in the Carioca accent that is just the accent most foreigners think of when they go to Brasil. I know that the actual regional accent occurs in and around Brasilia. Oh by the way, i've heard others who respond to this website say that you are very young yet your responses seem like you are much older than you are. How old are you? Where are you from and what is your primary language? Just curious?
It is not true Brazilian portuguese and Continental Portuguese share the same nasal sounds. Their place of articulation is totally different.
in Brazilian pronunciation the word CAMA (=bed) is pronounced:
['kãma] k + very nasal closed a + m + semiclosed a (between a, and XSAMPA 6 but closer to plain a)
in Continental Portuguese CAMA is pronounced ['k6m6] which sounds something like 'kêmê to a Brazilian ear.
the word COPACABANA ( [kopaca'bãna] in Brazilian Portuguese) would sound like
KUPEKEB'ÊNÊ to a Brazilian ear when said by a Portuguese person, that is, very massacred pronunciation.
7 Nasal sounds in Brazilian Portuguese:
nasal ã: cama ['kãma], maçã [ma'sã]
nasal e: menos ['me~nus], venha ['ve~y~a]
nasal i: minas ['mi~nas], assim [a'si~]
nasal o: tônico ['tõnikU], som [sõ], emoções [emo'sõy~s]
nasal y: tenho ['te~y~u], piranha [pi'rãy~a], vem [ve~y~], venha [ve~ya]
nasal w: falam ['falãw~]
NEM UM and NENHUM & VEM AMAR and VENHA AMAR sound exactly the same in Brazilian Portuguese: [ne~y~'u~], [ve~y~a'ma(h)] but they are not pronounced the same way in Continental Portuguese since NH in Continental Portuguese is heavily palatalized (like Ñ in Spanish) and in Brazilian portuguese NH is much softer, it is just a nasal glide (Y in English YES said thru nose, that is, nasally). A very nice sound, and exclusively Brazilian.
sonho [sõy~u] (when pronouncing NH the tongue does not touch the palatum mole in Brazilian Portuguese).
Oh, I just love this sound of ours, a nasal glide: NH [y~]
Those nasals are very sexy. Get some songs by Adriane Garcie to enjoy Brazilian Portuguese!!!
Adriane Garcia :)
AMOR PERFEITO
Fecho os olhos pra não ver passar o tempo
Sinto falta de você
Anjo bom, amor perfeito no meu peito
Sem você não sei viver
Então vem,
que eu conto os dias
Conto as horas pra te ver
Eu não consigo te esquecer
Cada minuto é muito tempo sem você, sem você
Os minutos vão passando lentamente
Não tem hora pra chegar
Até quando te querendo, te amando
Coração quer te encontrar
Então vem,
que nos meus braços esse amor é uma canção
Eu não consigo te esquecer
Cada minuto é muito tempo sem você, sem você
Eu não vou saber me acostumar
Sem suas mãos pra me acalmar
Sem seu olhar pra me entender
Sem seu carinho, amor, sem você
Vem me tirar da solidão
Fazer feliz meu coração
Já não importa quem errou
O que passou, passou então vem
Fecho os olhos pra não ver passar o tempo
Sinto falta de você
Anjo bom, amor perfeito no meu peito
Sem você não sei viver
Então vem,
que nos meus braços esse amor é uma canção
Eu não consigo te esquecer
Cada minuto é muito tempo sem você, sem você
Eu não vou saber me acostumar
Sem tuas mãos pra me acalmar
Sem seu olhar pra me entender
Sem seu carinho, amor, sem você
Vem me tirar da solidão
Fazer feliz meu coração
Já não importa quem errou
O que passou, passou então vem
A more tricky question (since there is little doubt brazialian / portuguese is same language). Do you think galician (a small language spoken in northwest spain) is the same language as portuguese?
(this is really only for the experts:))
AS an example, Ill translate some verses from above into galician:
"AMOR PERFEITO
Fecho os olhos pra não ver passar o tempo
Sinto falta de você
Anjo bom, amor perfeito no meu peito
Sem você não sei viver"
Amor perfecto
Pecho os ollos para non ver pasar o tempo
Sinto a falta de ti
Anxo bo, amor perfecto no meu peito
Sen ti non sei vivir
"Então vem,
que eu conto os dias
Conto as horas pra te ver
Eu não consigo te esquecer
Cada minuto é muito tempo sem você, sem você"
Enton ven,
que eu conto os dias
Conto as horas para te ver
Eu non consigo esquecer
Cada minute e moito tempo sen ti, sen ti
etc
My galician translation is according to the official normative, which is not necessarily recognised by all speakers (there is an important sector that advocates for a spelling more along the lines of portuguese, ie lh for ll, nh for n~.)
It does look almost the same, but bear in mind that speakers can barely undertand each other. Galician has lost most of the nasal sounds in portuguese (for example, the caracteristic -ao in portuguese is -on in galician, although a nasal -on), as well as most of the distinction between deaf/sounding (sordas/sonoras??) consonants that are still kept in portuguese. That brings the sound a lot closer to spanish.
My question is for portuguese speakers, or even english speakers that have heard galician, would they feel it as portuguese, or would they put it overall closer to spanish than to portuguese?
.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Galician sounds like Spanish to a Brazilian ear, and it is more understandable than Lisbon Portuguese.
Galicia is said Galícia in Brazil, not Galiza.
It was Gallegos themselves who promote(d) the name Galícia, so it is an official geographic term in Brasil (it appears in all geography books and atlasses)
"Português é fácil de aprender porque é uma
língua que se escreve exatamente como se fala"
Jô Soares. Revista "Veja" - 28.11.90
Pois é. U purtuguêis é muito faciu di aprender, purqui é uma língua qui a
genti iscrevi ixatamente cumu si fala. Num é cumu inglêis qui dá até vontadi di
ri quandu a genti discobri cumu é qui si iscrevi algumas palavras. Im
purtuguêis não. É só prestátenção. U alemão pur exemplu. Qué coisa mais
doida ? Num bate nada cum nada. Até nu espanhol qui é parecidu, si iscrevi
muinto diferenti. Qui bom qui a minha língua é u purtuguêis. Quem soubé falá
sabi iscrevê.
Are we talking about an accent or a dialect ( BIG DIFFERENCE ) ?
A way to write the same thing in a different way, Mathijs.
Qui bom qui a minha língua é u purtuguêis. Quem soubé falá
Que bom que a minha lingua é o Portugues. Quem souber falar etc
I speak four romance languages, quite fluently, I understand more or less bresilian people, but I can't really understand a film from Manuel de Oliveira. I can, perhaps read some poems of Pessoa, only some.. the portugues is very different from Spanish, really different and the pronunciation quite hard. It's a beautiful language but hard work...
Dear XuluChavez:
I have listened to quite a lot of Galicians and Portuguese since I was a child in Australia. We had many friends at home from both places. The first thing I can tell you is that the Australian Galicians and Portuguese spoke to each other in their own language and not in Spanish. I've seen that many times.
Since I studies Romance languages (and English) at University I have read quite a bit both in Galician and Portuguese. I have also read quite a bit from the "reintegracionistas" (Galician and Portuguese split in the 15th century and they wish a return to a common language keeping Galicia's linguistic peculiarities but adopting Portuguese and Galician traditional spelling.)
There is a huge difference between the Official Galician of la Xunta (Galician Regional Government) and that spoken in rural Galicia. I have also heard lots of Galician language television programmes. You have a similar feeling as when hearing Quebec Television. The newsreaders speak European French with a Quebec accent and you really have a hard time understanding townsfolk and even more villagers.
With Mr. Fraga (the Galician conservative regional president), speaking in Galician for Galicia (but broadcasted to the rest of Spain in national Spanish television) you don't need subtitles. He doesn't even seem to have a strong Galician accent and you understand over 95% of what he says without having heard Galician previously. That Galician definitely sounds more Spanish than even Galician.
When some villager from Galicia, even speaking in his Castilian, is passed on Spanish Television they should subtitle them and they often do. I've seen that many times and I'm sure you know what I mean.
The other thing is the internal differences within Galician itself. I have a friend from the province of Ourense, some 40 km. from the Portuguese border, he sound almost northern Portuguese. He is as Galician as the rest. The fact is there is no clear linguistic borderline between northern Portugal and Galicia. I'm sure Brazilians would understand northern Portuguese much better than southern Portuguese, although it is a matter of shortly training your ear. Thew Portuguese hear the Brazilians but most Brazilians don`t even hear other Brazilians from far away regions.
The thing is that there is no space for a third language between Castilian and Portuguese. Castilian and Portuguese form a Latin diasystematic continuum (the same as Catalan and Occitan). Galician was originally the same language as Portuguese and it has now become closer to Spanish (specially the official Spanish norm). Political interests are at stake. Brazilian is also at risk of "galeguisation" due to the neighbourhood of Castilian all over South America.
From a strictly linguistic point of view Galician should be Portuguese. You only need to read the Galician mediaeval classics and to officialise a model based on rural Galician and in the more genuine forms of the language.
Official Galician sounds even closer to the Castilian ear than rural Asturian or Bable (traditionally considered a dialect of Standard Castilian although it isn't from a strictly philological point of view).
Since you are Galician yourself you very well know that to consider Galician a variety of Portuguese (it is, after all, called Galaico-Portuguese by worldwide universities) is politically marked in Galicia as "nationalist" and "separatist". It is more a political than a linguistic issue.
As you know I haven't been in ANTIMOON for almost a fortnight but I thought you might be interested in my views.
Obviously, I have been told that Brazilian soap operas have been passed in the original Portuguese (from Brazil, of course) in Galician television.
I feel it is an error for languages to split from their tradition and even more for a relatively small community such as Galician ( perhaps 3 or4 million speakers?
I might be wrong but I firmly believe that the abandon of Galician in Urban Galicia is due to the fact that it has become a variety so close to Spanish (the official one) that young speakers probably consider that it isn't really worth keeping at all.
I, of course, feel that Galicia without Galician wouldn't be Galicia at all.
Jordi, in "Mar Adentro," were the people who lived in Galicia speaking Galician? I've only just begun to study Spanish, so even if the movie were all in Castellano, it would be pretty much incomprehensible to me (without subtitles), but the language did sound unfamiliar to me.