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Brasilian or Brasilian Portuguese ?
>I am just speculating. I could think of other unobjective explanations. Whether the exaggerated nasalization of Brazilian Portuguese (in my opinion stronger than in French) is beautiful, sexy, etc., is quite a different question. That was not the point of my message.<
I think that nasalization is hideous, not sexy in the least bit. People misconstrue, men in particular, the seductive feminine guile that Brazilian women are famous for and thus indirectly associate their accent as "sexy" just because Brazilian women are stereotypically known to be very flirtatious. The same is said about Eastern European women's accent but that's another mistake IMHO. There are many Eastern European women that are without a doubt very sexy indeed, but their manly Eastern European authoritative accent is most definitely not!
Lurker : "nasalization of Brazilian Portuguese (in my opinion stronger than in French)".
You may be right.
French nasal vowels are 'isolated' except in some accents heard in Southern France where nasal consonants may follow nasal vowels - as in Fr <année> = En <year> : Southern (sporadically) [Ãne] or even [ÃNne] vs Standard [ane]. You may find nasal vowels between two non-nasal consonants as in Fr <tenter> [tÃte] = En <tempt>, following a nasal consonant and preceding a non-nasal one as in Fr <demander> [d@mÃde] = En <ask>, but not (to my knowledge and notwithstanding some Southern realisation patterns) following a non-nasal consonant and preceding a nasal one.
A fortiori, you may not find nasal vowels between two non-nasal ones even if a nasal vowel may follow an oral one as in Fr <méandre> [meÃdR] = En <meander>, although I can't think of a word in which a nasal vowel precedes an oral one.
Likewise, I can't find any word instantiating two successive nasal vowels.
That was not the case of Old French (at least during some time as OF was hit by many vocalic tsunamis) with its common nasal pairs. Nasal vocalic pairs could even be followed by a nasal consonant ! See OF <vain> [vãi~n] vs Fr <vain> [vE~] = En <vain>, OF <plein> [plE~i~n] vs Fr <plein> [plE~] = En <full> and OF <loin> [lÕi~n] vs Fr <loin> [lwE~] = En <far>.
OF even had nasal diphthongs (possibly followed by a nasal consonant) as OF <bien> [byE~n] vs Fr <bien> [bjE~] = En <well>.
If nasal vowels may be found in a successive order or followed by nasal consonants in Portuguese (which I don’t know), then Old French (at least during some periods of time), rather than Modern French, might have been as nasalised as today’s Portuguese.
i half portugues and i personally canot tell the diffrenc between brazilliano portugues and normal portugues (since i unfortunatli speek ingles) because i live in australia, but i am happily trying to learn it . in my opiniun i veri much like portugues language and i hope that one day i will be able to speek it fluently . i am also learning deutsch (german). i love german language too.(just thought id say that) ADEUS.
I am a spanish speaker and nasal (gangoso). I wish i were french
To Greg:
>>Lurker : "nasalization of Brazilian Portuguese (in my opinion stronger than in French)".
You may be right.>>
One should always try to cite the original authors of a text, sentence, etc. That's not Lurker's sentence. I wrote it originally ;) (see previous page of this thread)
Thanks Jordi for your comments. I think your main point is that official galician norm has been made to agree as much as possible with spanish. I dont really agree with this, I think ppl that dont speak galician tend to mistake differences in accent between galician as spoken in villages vs the one spoken in cities (subject to a lot more spanish inlfuence) as different pronunciation norms, which I din't think its true.
My mother tongue is spanish rather than galician, but that was not the case for my father, so I consider myself very close to mother tongue galician speaker. Still I can say objectively that galician pronunciation is closer to the spanish norm than to the portuguese: there is hardly any nasal sounds left, and a much simpler system of consonants, almost in line with spanish. This is common to all speakers, and even though there is dialectal variations none of them is altoghether closer to portuguese norm (ie coastal galician doesnt have 'th' sound, but still doesnt differentiate btw -s- and -ss-).
I dont think its a result of spanish influence (which was negligible for most speakers until quite recently anyway). I think thats the reason behind the choice of norm by the Academia Galega (the institution responsible for the official norm), rather than any political will to approximate to spanish. To put it another way, portuguese standard accomodates perfectly the more complex pronunciation of lisbon portuguese, but would look unnecessarily complcated to write galician speech. Personally I believe reintegrationist norm has been more politically motivated than official norm
Intonation though is a lot closer to Portuguese, even brazilian, than to spanish, hence the characteristic galician accent.
Also I have spoken with portuguese people from the north and realised galician shares a lot more phonetic traits with them than lisbon norm. In fact I would love to know whether those traits I mentined above (nasalisation, more complex consonants like x/g, s/ss etc) are as present in north portugal as they are in lisbon norm
In brazil we don't use lisbon norm, we use brasília norm instead
xuloChávez : My impression, as northern Portuguese (urban), is that spoken Galician is still very near to Northwestern (at least) Portuguese. At Minho people also replace "-ão" by "-om", "v" by "b", as in Galicia; also "zh" sounds like ("junta") are pronounced not far from the Galecian "x" (like in "xunta"). But my knowledge of spoken Galecian is very narrow (only from the Rias area, and very limited). On the other hand, I think what you wrote about Standard Portuguese (the so called Coimbra-Lisboa ax) having become distant from Galecian is correct.
The only book in Galecian I read (Otero Pedrayo's "Ensaio Histórico sobre a Cultura Galega") left the impression of reading Portuguese with a mutant morphology, full of medieval archaisms (like "unha" x "uma"), but also a few castilianisms. The syntax seemed to be almost the same (different clitics location), the differences being in vocabulary. I remeber some passage in that book about Portuguese being a nephew of Galecian, or something alike; I think it's true, considering Portuguese changed by moving South (and overseas, after that), while Galecian seems to have kept closer to our medieval common language.
I feel I can't really answer your previous question, about Portuguese and Galecian as one or two languages; what Jordi wrote about spoken popular Galecian being that close to Portuguese made me very curious about the issue. I think for a person from Lisbon, Galecian might sound very near to a mix of Castilian and dialectal Portuguese from Minho; to a person from inner Minho, probably it sounds very familiar (probably with a few odd words in between, and a slight Castilian accent).
I will do you a favor
Galician: farei-te um favor
Portuguese: far-te-ei um favor
Brazilian: te farei um favor
«Portuguese: far-te-ei um favor
Brazilian: te farei um favor ,( Indyra)»
You could say that but nobody says it. If you were to say it people would raise their eyebrows. So what is yr point, Indyra?
My point is: in Brazilian language clitics can be put in the very beginning of the sentence:
Te amo.
Lhe falei.
Se foi embora.
Te direi.
(in Portuguese, one must say: Amo-te, Falei-lhe, Foi-se embora, Dir-te-ei)
Yeah, Indyra, but this has all been covered ad nauseam up to this point.
In spoken European Portuguese that sentence would probably be "Eu vou fazer-te um favor." In written Portuguese, however, I must say I kind of like the mesoclitic placement of the pronoun...I think it makes the language kind of unique. As for speaking that way, it is a bit of a mouthful.
You'll see proclitic placements in European Portuguese as well. For example, after prepositions, não, etc.
"Não se faz isso." (One shouldn't do that)
"O documento que me deu." (The document that you gave me).
"Deus te ajude." (God help you)
etc.
http://ciberduvidas.sapo.pt/php/resposta.php?id=13634&palavras=proclise+enclise+mesoclise
Dear Rui, XuloChavez, MJD and the Brazilians:
http://www.proel.org/mundo/gallego.htm
Yo must read this page to understand the different dialects of Galego and the main differences with Portuguese. Very few really and my main point, dear XuluChavez, is that there isn't really any space for a thrid language between Castilian Spanish and Portuguese. These are linguistically too close already and Galician is bound to be more Portuguese or more Castilian.
Although I'm not a native speaker of Galician I have told you I have been exposed to both Galician and Portuguese. I have heard lots of migrants, with low education, in both languages. My sister even had a boyfriend, for a long time, from Verín. He often spoke in Galician with the Galician and Portuguese friends who came home. Speaking Catalan, French and Spanish it was quite easy for me to understand them although I had to get used to the accent. I was a child at the time but I remember that vividly.
In the movie "Mar Adentro," do any of the characters speak Galician?
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