So, how many vowels did you say ther are in English?

Hey Smith
"different to the schwa between N and T in "couldn't" "

who pronounces didn't as couldn..t,
anyway i don't hear
any schwa sound in couldn't.

It may be true for some poeple. The number of phonemes you have dependes on your dialect. I count 42 phonemes (minimum*) in my accent.

* This doesn't include the affricatives /tS/ and /dZ/ nor does it include the "ch" of "loch" (which I rarely use). I haven't included /W/ because I pronounce "wh" and "w" the same. I haven't considered syllabic consonants as phonemically distinct. I haven't included the Japanese "r" as in "karate" and "karaoke" which I distinguish from the "r" and "l" in "right" and "light". I haven't included nasal vowels as in "grand prix".

My above comment was in response to Bill not Din.

For Jim
You seem to require 46 phonemes for your accent, to pronounce the basic English words. This is excluding the extra sounds that you use for foreign loan words.

I use 50 Phonemes when speak, and I write my speech phonetically with the Shaw Phonetic Alphabet. Are your phonemes all represented by the following Shaw letters. I must have something extra.
Also, I use upper case letters for the less common English Phonemes.
See below.

1. Adu, "x" (ado) ado, along, awake, alert
2. Alef, "a" (ash) ash, amber, ant, identify
3. Ail, "A" (ice) ice aisle, iron
4. Bet, "b" (bib) bib, baby
5. Gimel, "g" (gag) gag, gun, gold
6. Delta, "d" (dead) dead
7. Hey, "h" (ha-ha) ha-ha hey, hang, hello, hip, heart
8. Vav, "v" (vow) vow, vagabond
9. Zayeen, "z" (zoo) zoo, zeal, zebra
10. Yood, "y" (yea) yea, yes, yellow, yard, young
11. Yuter "Y" (ewe) euphoria, few, newt, cute, fuel, feud
12. Kawf "k" (kick) kick, calf, kipper, cough, kook
13. Elmo "L" (elle) girl, table, mile,devil
14. Lamed "l" (loll) lamp, light, loco
15. Mem, "m" (mime) mime, measure, moor, mirror
16. Nash, "n" (none) none, nun, noon
17. Ingga, "N" (hung) hung, sing, English
18. Sam, "s" (so) so, suppose, spring, face
19. Ester, "e" (*egg) extra, empty, heaven, devil, ember, brand X,
20. Eisawv, "E" (age) age, egg, apron
21. Eiran, "G" (air) air, fare, spare, err
22. Pey, "p" (peep) peep, post, poor, plant
23. Resh, "r" (roar) roar, rail, rook, raven
24. Earl, "R" (array) *array, *err, urge, urban
25. Shawn, "S" (share) share, sure, sheep, shilling
26. Tawf, "t" (tot) tot, tailor, tree
27. Fey "f" (fee) fee, flower, freedom
28. Wazu "w" (woe) woe, warm, wait, wing
29. Wheil "W" (whew) whale, whirl, whew, whoosh
30. Jawn "Z" (measure) measure, Jean, voyage, garage, treasure, triage
31. Cheetch "C" (church) church, check, cheat
32. Judjer "j" (judge) judge, jack, join
33. Thorn "T" (thigh) thin, with,
34. Thawn "D" (They) they
35. Izrah "i" (if) if, impossible, insane,imp, it
36. Eesy "I" (eat) eat, Ian, East, keep, eel, even
37. Irgun "J" (*ear) here, beer, Cyril, mirror
38. Ahmz "c" (ah) ah, alms, drama, trauma spa, lager, espionage,
on, stop, salon
39. Oliver "q" (awe) awe, awful, long, hawk, cough, often
40. Arno "M" (are) are, ark, art, heart, cart, tart, tar
41. Oun "Q" (Out) out, owl, clown, drown, pounce, ounce
42. Oprah "o" (oak) oak, hope, goal, bowl, ode, old, open
43. Oivy "O" (oil) oil, foyer, lawyer
44. Orly "P" (or) or, more, adore, door
45. whoops "u" (wool) rook, put, pull, wood, good, books
46. Uzer "U" (ooze) ooze, loser, kook, booze
47. Upety "V" (up) up, other, umbrella, uncle, udder, ugly, uneventful
48. Khet "K" (chutzpa) Loch, Bach
49. Tsadey "X" (tsar) pizza, tse tse fly
50. Dzend "H" (ads) cards

So by changing the sounds of just 3 Roman letters, (c, q, x) and adding in 21 Capital Letters, (A,C,D,E,F,G,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,Y,Z) each letter with a sound similar to the Roman Alphabet construction, you have a nice simple Phonetic Alphabet. If you use a Shavian Font, then the letters look even better. Different but better.

Regards, Paul V.

According to the above list there are 16 vowels in English. A Schwa, 10 normal vowels (6 soft, 4 long) and 5 Dipthongs.
See 1,2,3,11,19,20,35,36,38,39,41,42,43,45,46 and 47.

There are also 6 vowel consonant merges which you may or may not consider as phonemes.
er, ir, ar, air, or and el.

In British received pronunciation (RP) which is non-Rhotic, there are 12 monophthongs and 8 dipthongs make up for total of 20 vowels.

But in Standard American English (Mid-West/Western) which is Rhotic, there are only 11 normal vowels (1 Schwa, 6 soft, 4 long) and 5 Dipthongs to make up a total of 16 vowels. Some Americans only distinguish 14 or 15 vowel sounds.

Some of the extra Dipthongs in RP English are only used for the Non Rhotic pronunciation of a vowel merged with a following R-sound, to such an extent that the R sound disappears.

Rhotic Pronunciation is more understandable to a Foreign speaker of English.


Thanks for your input.

Oliver W.

Din,
My mistake. I meant could..nt, not couldn..t
I first wrote it.

anyway,
i didn't know that didn't was pronounced
as didn..t in any part of the world,
i make a nasal stop at the end of the world,
so i pronounce as didn.t not as didn..t,
at least that's how people pronounces it in US.

Paul,

So how did I get 42 (or 46) phonemes when you use 50?

I) I counted these as allophones of /o:/.
44. Orly "P" (or) or, more, adore, door
39. Oliver "q" (awe) awe, awful, hawk

II) I counted these as allophones of /a:/.
40. Arno "M" (are) are, ark, art, heart, cart, tart, tar
38. Ahmz "c" (ah) ah, alms, drama, spa, lager, espionage

III) I counted /ju:/ as /j/ plus /u:/ not a seperate phoneme.
/ju:/ = 11. Yuter "Y" (ewe) euphoria, few, newt, cute, fuel, feud
/j/ = 10. Yood, "y" (yea) yea, yes, yellow, yard, young
/u:/ = 46. Uzer "U" (ooze) ooze, loser, kook, booze

VI) I counted /ts/ as /t/ plus /s/ not a seperate phoneme.
/ts/ = 49. Tsadey "X" (tsar) pizza, tse tse fly
/t/ = 26. Tawf, "t" (tot) tot, tailor, tree
/s/ = 18. Sam, "s" (so) so, suppose, spring, face

V) I counted /dz/ as /d/ plus /z/ not a seperate phoneme.
/dZ/ = 50. Dzend "H" (ads) cards
/d/ = 6. Delta, "d" (dead) dead
/z/ = 9. Zayeen, "z" (zoo) zoo, zeal, zebra

VI) I counted these two as allophones of /l/.
13. Elmo "L" (elle) girl, table, mile, devil
14. Lamed "l" (loll) lamp, light, loco

VII) This is a distinction that I don't usually make.
28. Wazu "w" (woe) woe, warm, wait, wing
29. Wheil "W" (whew) whale, whirl, whew, whoosh

X) The 42 figure doesn't include the "ch" of "loch", as I'd mentioned.
48. Khet "K" (chutzpa) Loch, Bach

VIII) The 42 figure doesn't include the affricatives either, as I'd mentioned.
/tS/ = 31. Cheetch "C" (church) church, check, cheat
/t/ = 26. Tawf, "t" (tot) tot, tailor, tree
/S/ = 25. Shawn, "S" (share) share, sure, sheep, shilling

IX) The 42 figure doesn't include the affricatives.
/dZ/ = 32. Judjer "j" (judge) judge, jack, join
/d/ = 6. Delta, "d" (dead) dead
/Z/ = 30. Jawn "Z" (measure) measure, Jean, voyage, garage, treasure, triage

So eleven of those fifty sounds I didn't count as seperate phonemes when I came up with the 42 figure. However, 50-10=40 not 42. So what are the extra phonemes?

i) /o/ on, stop, salon, cough, often, long
ii) /u../ tour, cure, pure

The rest of my phoneme list matches yours (with the aformentioned exceptions).

OTHER SHORT VOWELS
iii) /@/ = 2. Alef, "a" (ash) ash, amber, ant
iv) /e/ = 19. Ester, "e" (egg) extra, empty, heaven, devil, ember, brand X
v) /i/ = 35. Izrah "i" (if) if, impossible, insane, imp, it
vi) /^/ = 47. Upety "V" (up) up, other, umbrella, uncle, udder, ugly, uneventful
vii) /u/ = 45. whoops "u" (wool) rook, put, pull, wood, good, books
viii) /../ 1. Adu, "x" (ado) ado, along, awake, alert

LONG VOWELS
ix) /au/ = 41. Oun "Q" (Out) out, owl, clown, drown, pounce, ounce
x) /a:/ = 40. Arno "M" (are) are, ark, art, heart, cart, tart, tar & 38. Ahmz "c" (ah) ah, alms, drama, spa, lager, espionage
xi) /e../ = 21. Eiran, "G" (air) air, fare, spare, err
xii) /e:/ = 24. Earl, "R" (array) turn, err, urge, urban
xiii) /i:/ = 36. Eesy "I" (eat) eat, Ian, East, keep, eel, even
xiv) /o:/ 44. Orly "P" (or) or, more, adore, door & 39. Oliver "q" (awe) awe, awful, trauma, hawk
xv) /u:/ 46. Uzer "U" (ooze) ooze, loser, kook, booze

OTHER DIPHTHONGS
xvi) /ei/ = 20. Eisawv, "E" (age) age, egg, apron
xvii) /i../ = 37. Irgun "J" (ear) here, beer, fear, near
xviii) /ai/ 3. Ail, "A" (ice) ice, aisle, iron
xix) /oi/ 43. Oivy "O" (oil) oil, foyer, lawyer
xx) /Ou/ 42. Oprah "o" (oak) oak, hope, goal, bowl, ode, old, open

SEMIVOWELS
xxi) /j/ = 10. Yood, "y" (yea) yea, yes, yellow, yard, young
xxii) /w/ = 28. Wazu "w" (woe) woe, warm, wait, wing & 29. Wheil "W" (whew) whale, whirl, whew, whoosh

NASALS
xxiii) /m/ = 15. Mem, "m" (mime) mime, measure, moor, mirror
xxiv) /n/ = 16. Nash, "n" (none) none, nun, noon
xxv) /N/ = 17. Ingga, "N" (hung) hung, sing, English

LIQUIDS
xxvi) /l/ = 13. Elmo "L" (elle) girl, table, mile,devil & 14. Lamed "l" (loll) lamp, light, loco
xxvii) /r/ = 23. Resh, "r" (roar) roar, rail, rook, raven

FRICATIVES
xxviii) /h/ = 7. Hey, "h" (ha-ha) ha-ha hey, hang, hello, hip, heart
xxix) /f/ = 27. Fey "f" (fee) fee, flower, freedom
xxx) /v/ = 8. Vav, "v" (vow) vow, vagabond
xxxi) /th/ = 33. Thorn "T" (thigh) thin, with,
xxxii) /TH/ = 34. Thawn "D" (They) they
xxxiii) /s/ = 18. Sam, "s" (so) so, suppose, spring, face
xxxiv) /z/ = 9. Zayeen, "z" (zoo) zoo, zeal, zebra
xxxv) /S/ = 25. Shawn, "S" (share) share, sure, sheep, shilling
xxxvi) /Z/ = 30. Jawn "Z" (measure) measure, Jean, voyage, garage, treasure, triage

STOPS
xxxvii) /p/ = 22. Pey, "p" (peep) peep, post, poor, plant
xxxviii) /b/ = 4. Bet, "b" (bib) bib, baby
xxxix) /t/ = 26. Tawf, "t" (tot) tot, tailor, tree
xl) /d/ = 6. Delta, "d" (dead) dead
xli) /k/ = 12. Kawf "k" (kick) kick, calf, kipper, cough, kook
xlii) /g/ = 5. Gimel, "g" (gag) gag, gun, gold

Agruably /i(:)/ could be considered to be a seperate phoneme (rather than an allophone of /i/ or /i:/). I hadn't counted it but perhaps I should have. On the other hand, I don't distinguish /u../ from /u:../, so perhaps there is no /u../ phoneme in my accent. Perhaps for me /u../ is no more than /u:/ plus /../. I rhyme "tour" and "core" with "fewer" and "doer".

Do you mean you don't pronounce the final "t"? So you're just left with the nasal plus the "n" consonant at the end? I say did..nt, could..nt, etc

"Arguably" not "agruably".

Jim, Do you really pronounce ''core'' to rhyme with ''fewer'' and ''doer'' or was it a typo. It would sound odd to me of someone rhymed ''core'' with ''fewer'' and ''doer''. I think you meant ''cure''.

These are the phonemes in my accent.

Consonants

[b]-bag
[tS]-chip
[d]-dog
[f]-frog
[g]-get
[h]-heat
[j]-yes
[dZ]-jump
[k]-cat
[l]-light
[m]-might
[n]-night
[o]-open
[p]-party
[r]-red, car
[s]-snake, bass
[S]-sharp, fish
[t]-toast, tiger
[th]-think, thin
[TH]-there, that
[v]-van, verb
[w]-weed, why
[z]-zoo
[Z]-beige, vision

Vowels

[@]-cat, calf, half, ant, aunt, bag
[e]-set, get, ten, fence
[i]-sit
[a:]-hot, caught, father
[^]-cup
[u]-put
[..]-arrest, soda
[ei]-say
[ai]-sigh
[i:] seed, greet, leak
[u:] food, grew, new, shoe, suit
[ju:] mute, beautiful
[a:] hot, father, caught
[i:] seed, greet, leak
[u:] food, grew, new, shoe, suit
[ju:] mute, beautiful
[Ou]-so
[oi]-coin
[au]-mount

Vowels that only occur before [r].

[o:r] court, cord, fort
[e:r] fern, sir, stir, burn

Of course, there are some other phonemes in English that aren't in my accent.

There are some phonemes that some English speakers use that are not in my accent. Here are some that are in some accents and also some that are all accents. Phonemes of English.

Consonants

[b]-bag
[tS]-chip
[d]-dog
[f]-frog
[g]-get
[h]-heat
[j]-yes
[dZ]-jump
[k]-cat
[l]-light
[m]-might
[n]-night
[o]-open
[p]-party
[r]-red, car
[s]-snake, bass
[S]-sharp, fish
[t]-toast, tiger
[th]-think, thin
[TH]-there, that
[v]-van, verb
[w]-weed, why
[z]-zoo
[Z]-beige, vision

Vowels

[@]-cat, calf, half, ant, aunt, bag
[e]-set, get, ten, fence
[i]-sit
[a:]-hot, caught, father
[^]-cup
[u]-put
[..]-arrest, soda
[ei]-say
[ai]-sigh
[i:] seed, greet, leak
[u:] food, grew, new, shoe, suit
[ju:] mute, beautiful
[a:] hot, father, caught
[i:] seed, greet, leak
[u:] food, grew, new, shoe, suit
[ju:] mute, beautiful
[Ou]-so
[oi]-coin
[au]-mount
[o:]-saw
[e:(r)]-burglar, dirt, hurt
[e..]-yeah
[i..]-idea
[u..(r)]-cure, pure, tour

Phonemes that don't exist in most dialects but exist in some.

[W]-whale, what, when- ''used by those who distinguish ''whine/wine''
[A]-made, daze, pane, mane, ate= ''A monophthong used by some Northern Irish people that distinguish these words from ''maid'', ''days'', ''pain'', ''main'' and ''eight''.
[O]-toe, sole, nose, groan=A ''A monophthong used by people from Liverpool people that distinguish these words from ''tow'', ''soul'', ''knows'' and ''grown''.
[E]-tenner ''used by some Northern Irish people that distinguish this word from ''tenor'' by using a longer vowel.''

Other phonemes that some people may use but most people don't.

[K]-loch
[n:]-contretemps ''nasal vowels''
[L]-Llwyd ''Welsh voiceless ''l''
[R]-rouge ''voiced uvular fricative'' [Ru:Z] ''parisian French pronunciation''.
[?]-hawai'ian ''how the word is pronounced and spelled in the Hawai'ian language'' [h..wai?i(:)] ''glottal stop''
[B]-Cuba [ku:Ba:] ''voiced bilabial fricative''= ''Spanish pronunciation of the name, different to [b] and [v].
[l:]=belle=light ''l'' at the end of a syllable. ''French pronunciation of the word''. ''belle''=[bel:] as distinguish from ''bell'' which has a dark ''l''.
[y]-Cluny lace
[Y]-foehn

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Jim and I have been mentioning a lot about this on a spelling reform thread that Willy has been writing all his ''bwauk'' nonsense in and ''Garr'' had been calling my reform proposal shitty. I'm starting a new thread about my improved spelling reform proposal on a Europa forum.
http://p081.ezboard.com/feuropa2frm40.showMessage?topicID=44.topic perhaps in this thread Willy won't write his ''bwauk'' nonsense.

i = h(i)t (short)
i: = s(ee) (long)

Basically the same. One is a short form and the other long. No problems.
-----------------------------------
e = m(e)t (short?)
e: = p(e)rt (long?)

Are they the same but differ only in length?
-------------------------------------

a: = p(a)rt (long?)
^ = b(u)t (short?)
.. = (a)part (??)

Great difficulty. They are so close to being identical in my opinion. The schwa is a complete mystery to me. The schwa some times sounds like an (e:) in pert and at other times like an (a:) in part. Coming from my speech, probably all three vowel phonemes sound alike.
----------------------------------------

o = p(o)t (short)
o: = p(o)rt (long)

Same, only that one is longer. Piece of cake.
-------------------------------------------------------------

u = p(u)ll
u: = p(oo)l

Same story, identical but one is longer than the other.
-----------------------------------------------------

@ = c(a)t, p(a)t (long)

Odd one out, very peculiar phoneme that merges two vowels into one. It starts out like an (a:) in part and ends in (e) in pet. I think.
-----------------------------------

My dictionary has three more vowels that I wasn't even aware of!!!

The (o) in B(O)N VOYAGE is supposedly different from the ones mentioned already
The (i) in the French word V(I)N is similar but not identical to @??? What the...?
The (ue) in the French word R(UE) is given the symbol (y). Therefore, R(Y)

So all in all 15 vowel phonemes which I was only aware of 12 and in all likelihood can only produce 9 distinct sounds from the 12 that I knew about.

''@ = c(a)t, p(a)t (long)''

''Odd one out, very peculiar phoneme that merges two vowels into one. It starts out like an (a:) in part and ends in (e) in pet. I think.''

John, [@] in ''cat'' is not a diphthong.

= h(i)t (short)
i: = s(ee) (long)

Basically the same.

I don't know what you're talking about but they're not the same. do you pronounce ''fish'' as ''feesh'' or ''read'' as ''rid''?

u = p(u)ll
u: = p(oo)l

Same

I don't know what you're talking about but ''pool'' and ''pull'' sound very different to me. It's not the same sound.

a: = p(a)rt (long?)
^ = b(u)t (short?)
.. = (a)part (??)

Great difficulty. They are so close to being identical in my opinion. They're very different.