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So, how many vowels did you say ther are in English?
<<John, [@] in ''cat'' is not a diphthong.>>
Well, it sounds like one ;-) Seriously, I know it isn't one technically but that's the best way I can describe it. You place your mouth like you are going to produce the (a:) vowel but you end up with the (e) vowel. I think?
<<I don't know what you're talking about but they're not the same. do you pronounce ''fish'' as ''feesh'' or ''read'' as ''rid''? >>
I know they are not the "same" but they sound alike to me apart from the fact that you "stretch" one for a bit longer.
<<
u = p(u)ll
u: = p(oo)l
Same
<<I don't know what you're talking about but ''pool'' and ''pull'' sound very different to me. It's not the same sound.>>
You missed "but one is longer than the other." Isn't it the same sound but you hold one for a longer period of time?
<<
a: = p(a)rt (long?)
^ = b(u)t (short?)
.. = (a)part (??)
Great difficulty. They are so close to being identical in my opinion. They're very different.>>
Wel,l in Spanish we have only one "A" phoneme so this is very challenging for me ok? I'm sure they are very DIFFERENT to you but definitely not to me. Incredibly hard to distinguish in my opinion. I bet these three vowels exist just to give me headaches.
The (a:) is long, the (^) is a short and the (..) is short as well. I think?
I consistently confuse the (^) and (..) because they are very similar in length. They are almost interchangeable in my opinion.
"Neat" and "net" don't rhyme as "sweet" and "sweat" don't.
"See" and "sea" rhyme. Why not "sweet" and "sweat"?
"Wheat" doesn't rhyme with "sweat".
"Sweat" is not spelled "swet", so?
Jim, Do you really pronounce ''core'' to rhyme with ''fewer'' and ''doer'' or was it a typo. It would sound odd to me of someone rhymed ''core'' with ''fewer'' and ''doer''. I think you meant ''cure''.
These are the phonemes in my accent.
Consonants
[b]-bag
[tS]-chip
[d]-dog
[f]-frog
[g]-get
[h]-heat
[j]-yes
[dZ]-jump
[k]-cat
[l]-light
[m]-might
[n]-night
[o]-open
[p]-party
[r]-red, car
[s]-snake, bass
[S]-sharp, fish
[t]-toast, tiger
[th]-think, thin
[TH]-there, that
[v]-van, verb
[w]-weed, why
[z]-zoo
[Z]-beige, vision
Vowels
[@]-cat, calf, half, ant, aunt, bag
[e]-set, get, ten, fence
[i]-sit
[a:]-hot, caught, father
[^]-cup
[u]-put
[..]-arrest, soda
[ei]-say
[ai]-sigh
[i:] seed, greet, leak
[u:] food, grew, new, shoe, suit
[ju:] mute, beautiful
[a:] hot, father, caught
[i:] seed, greet, leak
[u:] food, grew, new, shoe, suit
[ju:] mute, beautiful
[Ou]-so
[oi]-coin
[au]-mount
Vowels that only occur before [r].
[o:r] court, cord, fort
[e:r] fern, sir, stir, burn
Of course, there are some other phonemes in English that aren't in my accent.
There are some phonemes that some English speakers use that are not in my accent. Here are some that are in some accents and also some that are all accents. Phonemes of English.
Consonants
[b]-bag
[tS]-chip
[d]-dog
[f]-frog
[g]-get
[h]-heat
[j]-yes
[dZ]-jump
[k]-cat
[l]-light
[m]-might
[n]-night
[o]-open
[p]-party
[r]-red, car
[s]-snake, bass
[S]-sharp, fish
[t]-toast, tiger
[th]-think, thin
[TH]-there, that
[v]-van, verb
[w]-weed, why
[z]-zoo
[Z]-beige, vision
Vowels
[@]-cat, calf, half, ant, aunt, bag
[e]-set, get, ten, fence
[i]-sit
[a:]-hot, caught, father
[^]-cup
[u]-put
[..]-arrest, soda
[ei]-say
[ai]-sigh
[i:] seed, greet, leak
[u:] food, grew, new, shoe, suit
[ju:] mute, beautiful
[a:] hot, father, caught
[i:] seed, greet, leak
[u:] food, grew, new, shoe, suit
[ju:] mute, beautiful
[Ou]-so
[oi]-coin
[au]-mount
[o:]-saw
[e:(r)]-burglar, dirt, hurt
[e..]-yeah
[i..]-idea
[u..(r)]-cure, pure, tour
Phonemes that don't exist in most dialects but exist in some.
[W]-whale, what, when- ''used by those who distinguish ''whine/wine''
[A]-made, daze, pane, mane, ate= ''A monophthong used by some Northern Irish people that distinguish these words from ''maid'', ''days'', ''pain'', ''main'' and ''eight''.
[O]-toe, sole, nose, groan=A ''A monophthong used by people from Liverpool people that distinguish these words from ''tow'', ''soul'', ''knows'' and ''grown''.
[E]-tenner ''used by some Northern Irish people that distinguish this word from ''tenor'' by using a longer vowel.''
Other phonemes that some people may use but most people don't.
[K]-loch
[n:]-contretemps ''nasal vowels''
[L]-Llwyd ''Welsh voiceless ''l''
[R]-rouge ''voiced uvular fricative'' [Ru:Z] ''parisian French pronunciation''.
[?]-hawai'ian ''how the word is pronounced and spelled in the Hawai'ian language'' [h..wai?i(:)] ''glottal stop''
[B]-Cuba [ku:Ba:] ''voiced bilabial fricative''= ''Spanish pronunciation of the name, different to [b] and [v].
[l:]=belle=light ''l'' at the end of a syllable. ''French pronunciation of the word''. ''belle''=[bel:] as distinguish from ''bell'' which has a dark ''l''.
[y]-Cluny lace
[Y]-foehn
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Jim and I have been mentioning a lot about this on a spelling reform thread that Willy has been writing all his ''bwauk'' nonsense in and ''Garr'' had been calling my reform proposal shitty. I'm starting a new thread about my improved spelling reform proposal on a Europa forum.
http://p081.ezboard.com/feuropa2frm40.showMessage?topicID=44.topic perhaps in this thread Willy won't write his ''bwauk'' nonsense.
Loch, I just say that I'm not agreed with your new sounds. I speak English, not French, Polish, Norse, Dutch, nor German. English is my favourite flavour. I'm what you don't think I could.
[u:] food, grew, new, shoe, & suit. It's false because u: is ee-'oo, not oo.
[u]-put. It's false because u is ee-'oo, not oo-'aw.
The u or u: with colon is not pronounced in English adequately.
Definitely you don't use language but do use misunderstood symbols.
I know "a" in "cat" is not a diphthong but sounds as if it were quickly. A variety of sounds for "a" in "cat" I have heard but the sound I learned to say is "æ" from Old English. The "æ" is a stressed short o with a short e.
Look 'eh-ah. Unbelievable! That's the English controversy.
''Loch, I just say that I'm not agreed with your new sounds. I speak English, not French, Polish, Norse, Dutch, nor German. English is my favourite flavour. I'm what you don't think I could.''
What new sounds are you talking about? What do you mean by saying ''I'm not agreed with your new sounds''? Besides, that sentence is bad grammar.
Willy, what's this ee-'oo, and oo-'aw that you're talking about? What the heck are those?
Willy, where on earth do you come from? What do you mean by "English is my favourite flavour."??????????
FEWER TOUR DOER & CORE
Yeah, that was a typo. I pronounce "cure" not "core" to rhyme with "fewer", "tour" and "doer".
There is a bigger difference between pull and pool than the relatively small
difference between the soft "oo" of pull, wool, wood, foot, soot and the long "oo" of pool, cool, wooed, food and sued.
The soft "oo" blends right into and becomes part of a syllabic "L" . pull = pul
Whereas the hard "oo" stands separately from the syllabic "L". pool =pu:.l
That makes the two words, noticably different.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. It is rare to see such a variation in length.
The only other other example I can see were the long vowel is extended in such a way is:
pills -> pilz
peelz -> pi:.lz
There is a lot of variations in the vowels, but there is a fair bit of overlap too. You are confusing small differences with big ones.
First
e = m(e)t is (short)
And since e: is also short, the variation is not in the length
e: = p(e)rt (short)
This e: sound only exist together with the syllabic r sound.
as in urge or hurt.
It should probably be spelt ..r or .r
Regards, Paul V
P.S. They are not the same and should not be grouped together as a conveniance.
<<
First
e = m(e)t is (short)
And since e: is also short, the variation is not in the length
e: = p(e)rt (short)
>>
Really? I'm learning non-rhotic English and in this variety the difference in pet and pert is the length of the e vowel. I thought they were the same apart from the length. Dayumn :-(
I hadn't count /dZ/ and /tS/ in my minimal list of phonemes but I still think that they probably should be counted as phonemes rather than just /d/ or /t/ plus /Z/ or /S/. Adding these to my 42 phonemes I get 44.
Pauls list also includes /dz/ and /ts/. I don't think of these as phonemes in themselves. I think that they are just /d/ or /t/ plus /z/ or /s/. Before adding these to the list of phonemes I'd say that /gz/ and /ks/ more deserve the phoneme-status.
Loch, like Paul, counts /ju:/ as a phoneme. I don't agree. Think of these words: "year", "yeah", "your", "ye", "yea", "yacht", "yak", "yet", "yum", "yam", "yoke", "yard" and "yearn". Is "you" so different? Are the /j/s in the former phomenes whereas the one in "you" is just part of the /ju:/ phoneme. What about the /j../ in "million"? Is this a phomeme too?
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