Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 10:24 GMT
I was just demonstrating how perspective affects objectivity, as in Mxsmanic's case.
RP is the accent with the most phonemes?
Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 10:25 GMT
It's all tongue-in-cheek (at least from my end)
;)
;)
Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 18:31 GMT
There's nothing unobjective about my perspective. ALL varieties of English contain useless phones. Only the phonemes are important. I regularly teach students this, so that they concentrate on mastering the phonemes and don't waste excessive amounts of time on phones that are not also phonemes.
Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 19:27 GMT
''>>RP and all other varieties of English have a lot of useless phones<<''
''Maybe so from the perspective of an uncultivated or unworldly American. Americans have this cumbersome and unnecessary R sound at the end of many words and in between syllables. Also, American English has many homophones which is irritating and often muddles meaning in a given context.''
;'''''''''
Okay, Britons have this cumbersome and unnecessary intrusive R sound that they throw in between vowels as in ''law and order'' and ''Africa and America''.
Britons also have this cumbersome and unnecessary ''y'' sound that they use after ''d'', ''t'' and ''n'' in words like ''new'', ''newt'', ''tune'', ''tube'', ''Tuesday'', ''duke'', ''due'', ''dune'', ''dual'' etc.
''Maybe so from the perspective of an uncultivated or unworldly American. Americans have this cumbersome and unnecessary R sound at the end of many words and in between syllables. Also, American English has many homophones which is irritating and often muddles meaning in a given context.''
;'''''''''
Okay, Britons have this cumbersome and unnecessary intrusive R sound that they throw in between vowels as in ''law and order'' and ''Africa and America''.
Britons also have this cumbersome and unnecessary ''y'' sound that they use after ''d'', ''t'' and ''n'' in words like ''new'', ''newt'', ''tune'', ''tube'', ''Tuesday'', ''duke'', ''due'', ''dune'', ''dual'' etc.
Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 19:31 GMT
awe-or/ore/oar
law-lore
Shaw-shore
saw-sore
gnaw-nor
caw-core
maw-more
flaw-floor
raw-roar
paw-pore/poor/pour
pawn-porn
paws/pause-pores/pours
cause-cores
saws-sores
sauce-source
sawed-sword
sort-sought
caught-court
fought-fort
taught-tort
talk-torque
farther/father
tort/taught
sore/saw
nor/gnaw
core/caw
more/maw
sought/sort
source/sauce
sword/sawed
sores/saws
cores/cause
pores/pours/paws/pause
floor/flaw
roar/raw
pensular/pensula
larva/lava
''You'll need a lot more words to persuade me. Their meanings can be derived from context.''
You say that American English has so many homonyms. See all those homonyms that non-rhotic accents have. But, once again, not all rhotic accents are American.
M15, What homonyms do Americans have that other accents don't have?
law-lore
Shaw-shore
saw-sore
gnaw-nor
caw-core
maw-more
flaw-floor
raw-roar
paw-pore/poor/pour
pawn-porn
paws/pause-pores/pours
cause-cores
saws-sores
sauce-source
sawed-sword
sort-sought
caught-court
fought-fort
taught-tort
talk-torque
farther/father
tort/taught
sore/saw
nor/gnaw
core/caw
more/maw
sought/sort
source/sauce
sword/sawed
sores/saws
cores/cause
pores/pours/paws/pause
floor/flaw
roar/raw
pensular/pensula
larva/lava
''You'll need a lot more words to persuade me. Their meanings can be derived from context.''
You say that American English has so many homonyms. See all those homonyms that non-rhotic accents have. But, once again, not all rhotic accents are American.
M15, What homonyms do Americans have that other accents don't have?
Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 21:03 GMT
Standard American English doesn't have too many homonyms. Some regional varieties do, however:
caught/cot -- Northeastern New England, Western Pennsylvania, some parts of the West and South
God/guard -- New York City (some varieties)
dart/dot -- Rhode Island
cod/cord -- Boston
pen/pin --the South
caught/cot -- Northeastern New England, Western Pennsylvania, some parts of the West and South
God/guard -- New York City (some varieties)
dart/dot -- Rhode Island
cod/cord -- Boston
pen/pin --the South
Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 21:09 GMT
American English homonyms,
marry/merry/Mary
Barry/berry
carry/kerry
dairy/derry
fairy/ferry
Sirius/serious
balm/bomb
calm/com
marry/merry/Mary
Barry/berry
carry/kerry
dairy/derry
fairy/ferry
Sirius/serious
balm/bomb
calm/com
Wednesday, September 15, 2004, 00:04 GMT
If "the number of non-phonemic diphthongs varies greatly from one variety of English to the next, but the number of phonemic diphthongs is virtually constant at three (now, toy, and eye)" then what about /ei/ as in "saint", "weight" and "cake" and /Ou/ as in "tow", "phone" and "post"?
Wednesday, September 15, 2004, 00:39 GMT
There are 43 phonemes in my accent.
I sometimes count [a:r] in ''car'', [er] in ''care'' and [ir] in ''clear'' as phonemes and then I have 46. But, I'm not counting them right now.
1.[@]-cat, sat
2.[e]-sent, ten, set
3.[i]-sit, tin, sin, lit
4.[a:]-father, cot, caught
5.[^]-cut
6.[u]-could, would, book, put, cook, stood
7.[..]-suspect [the verb]
8.[ei]-saint, cake
9.[i:]-street, feed
10.[ai]-strike, pipe
11.[Ou]-coat, joke, hope
12.[u:]-cool, room, root, new, tune, Tuesday, dune, due
13.[ju:]-mute, beautiful, few, cube, pew
14.[o:r]-core, four, form, storm
15.[e:r]-fur, burn, learn, fern, bird, permit [the noun]
1.[@]-cat, sat
2.[e]-sent, ten, set
3.[i]-sit, tin, sin, lit
4.[a:]-father, cot, caught
5.[^]-cut
6.[u]-could, would, book, put, cook, stood
7.[..]-suspect [the verb]
8.[ei]-saint, cake
9.[i:]-street, feed
10.[ai]-strike, pipe
11.[Ou]-coat, joke, hope
12.[u:]-cool, room, root, new, tune, Tuesday, dune, due
13.[ju:]-mute, beautiful, few, cube, pew
14.[o:r]-core, four, form, storm
15.[e:r]-fur, burn, learn, fern, bird, permit [the noun]
16.[..r]-permit [the verb]
17.[oi]-coin, foyer,
18.[au]-cow, now, how
19.[i..]-idea
20.[b]-big
21.[d]-dig
22.[f]-fish
23.[g]-get
24.[h]-heat
25.[dZ]-jeep
26.[k]-cat, kitchen
27.[l]-lent
28.[m]-make
29.[n]-name
30.[p]-pop
31.[r]-road
32.[s]-snake, sun
33.[t]-table
34.[v]-vent
35.[w]-window
36.[j]-yes
37.[z]-zoo, xylophone, zip, cords
38.[tS]-church, chup
39.[N]-sing, thing, finger, singer
40.[S]-sharp, share, ship
41.[th]-think, threat
42.[TH]-then, that, this, there, father
43.[Z]-genre, beige, vision, television, usual, measure, pleasure
17.[oi]-coin, foyer,
18.[au]-cow, now, how
19.[i..]-idea
20.[b]-big
21.[d]-dig
22.[f]-fish
23.[g]-get
24.[h]-heat
25.[dZ]-jeep
26.[k]-cat, kitchen
27.[l]-lent
28.[m]-make
29.[n]-name
30.[p]-pop
31.[r]-road
32.[s]-snake, sun
33.[t]-table
34.[v]-vent
35.[w]-window
36.[j]-yes
37.[z]-zoo, xylophone, zip, cords
38.[tS]-church, chup
39.[N]-sing, thing, finger, singer
40.[S]-sharp, share, ship
41.[th]-think, threat
42.[TH]-then, that, this, there, father
43.[Z]-genre, beige, vision, television, usual, measure, pleasure
I sometimes count [a:r] in ''car'', [er] in ''care'' and [ir] in ''clear'' as phonemes and then I have 46. But, I'm not counting them right now.
1.[@]-cat, sat
2.[e]-sent, ten, set
3.[i]-sit, tin, sin, lit
4.[a:]-father, cot, caught
5.[^]-cut
6.[u]-could, would, book, put, cook, stood
7.[..]-suspect [the verb]
8.[ei]-saint, cake
9.[i:]-street, feed
10.[ai]-strike, pipe
11.[Ou]-coat, joke, hope
12.[u:]-cool, room, root, new, tune, Tuesday, dune, due
13.[ju:]-mute, beautiful, few, cube, pew
14.[o:r]-core, four, form, storm
15.[e:r]-fur, burn, learn, fern, bird, permit [the noun]
1.[@]-cat, sat
2.[e]-sent, ten, set
3.[i]-sit, tin, sin, lit
4.[a:]-father, cot, caught
5.[^]-cut
6.[u]-could, would, book, put, cook, stood
7.[..]-suspect [the verb]
8.[ei]-saint, cake
9.[i:]-street, feed
10.[ai]-strike, pipe
11.[Ou]-coat, joke, hope
12.[u:]-cool, room, root, new, tune, Tuesday, dune, due
13.[ju:]-mute, beautiful, few, cube, pew
14.[o:r]-core, four, form, storm
15.[e:r]-fur, burn, learn, fern, bird, permit [the noun]
16.[..r]-permit [the verb]
17.[oi]-coin, foyer,
18.[au]-cow, now, how
19.[i..]-idea
20.[b]-big
21.[d]-dig
22.[f]-fish
23.[g]-get
24.[h]-heat
25.[dZ]-jeep
26.[k]-cat, kitchen
27.[l]-lent
28.[m]-make
29.[n]-name
30.[p]-pop
31.[r]-road
32.[s]-snake, sun
33.[t]-table
34.[v]-vent
35.[w]-window
36.[j]-yes
37.[z]-zoo, xylophone, zip, cords
38.[tS]-church, chup
39.[N]-sing, thing, finger, singer
40.[S]-sharp, share, ship
41.[th]-think, threat
42.[TH]-then, that, this, there, father
43.[Z]-genre, beige, vision, television, usual, measure, pleasure
17.[oi]-coin, foyer,
18.[au]-cow, now, how
19.[i..]-idea
20.[b]-big
21.[d]-dig
22.[f]-fish
23.[g]-get
24.[h]-heat
25.[dZ]-jeep
26.[k]-cat, kitchen
27.[l]-lent
28.[m]-make
29.[n]-name
30.[p]-pop
31.[r]-road
32.[s]-snake, sun
33.[t]-table
34.[v]-vent
35.[w]-window
36.[j]-yes
37.[z]-zoo, xylophone, zip, cords
38.[tS]-church, chup
39.[N]-sing, thing, finger, singer
40.[S]-sharp, share, ship
41.[th]-think, threat
42.[TH]-then, that, this, there, father
43.[Z]-genre, beige, vision, television, usual, measure, pleasure
Wednesday, September 15, 2004, 00:53 GMT
Jim, do you think that the RP accent is the accent with the most phonemes or is that just a myth? Some people say that the RP accent has the most phonemes.
Some people say that the RP accent is the accent with the most phonemes because it includes [o] which North Americans don't use. But, the RP accent isn't the only accent that uses [o].
Some people say that the RP accent is the accent with the most phonemes because it includes [o] which North Americans don't use. But, the RP accent isn't the only accent that uses [o].
Wednesday, September 15, 2004, 00:59 GMT
''then what about /ei/ as in "saint", "weight" and "cake" and /Ou/ as in "tow", "phone" and "post"?''
Jim, In some accents /ei/ and /Ou/ are monothongs. Not all accents pronounce /ei/ and /Ou/ as diphthongs.
Jim, In some accents /ei/ and /Ou/ are monothongs. Not all accents pronounce /ei/ and /Ou/ as diphthongs.
Wednesday, September 15, 2004, 02:37 GMT
Mxsmanic:
>>There's nothing unobjective about my perspective. ALL varieties of English contain useless phones. Only the phonemes are important. I regularly teach students this, so that they concentrate on mastering the phonemes and don't waste excessive amounts of time on phones that are not also phonemes. <<
Does useless mean the scraping R sound in American English will get scrapped in favour of Bostonian-speak when English orthography is reformed?
OK it was your earlier criticism (which makes NO sense from any other perspective including mine) of non-rhotic English (superiorly evolved) that stirred my facetious side.
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/mmm_rf.wav
"Mary dear, make me merry; say you'll marry me."
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/mmm_bc.wav
"Mary dear, make me Mary; say you'll Mary me."
I'm curious to know if ESL students are taught to distinguish m*ry words phonemically.(in the US)
>>There's nothing unobjective about my perspective. ALL varieties of English contain useless phones. Only the phonemes are important. I regularly teach students this, so that they concentrate on mastering the phonemes and don't waste excessive amounts of time on phones that are not also phonemes. <<
Does useless mean the scraping R sound in American English will get scrapped in favour of Bostonian-speak when English orthography is reformed?
OK it was your earlier criticism (which makes NO sense from any other perspective including mine) of non-rhotic English (superiorly evolved) that stirred my facetious side.
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/mmm_rf.wav
"Mary dear, make me merry; say you'll marry me."
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/mmm_bc.wav
"Mary dear, make me Mary; say you'll Mary me."
I'm curious to know if ESL students are taught to distinguish m*ry words phonemically.(in the US)
Wednesday, September 15, 2004, 03:01 GMT
I guess whether "ESL students are taught to distinguish m*ry words phonemically" in the US would depend on the teacher.
Mr. Phone,
Do I think that "the RP accent is the accent with the most phonemes or is that just a myth?" I think that it is probably just a myth but I can't be sure being, as I am, no linguist.
"the RP accent isn't the only accent that uses [o]." this is true. My accent has an /o/ and it's not RP and there are many other accents with /o/ too. Also there are many other phonemes besides /o/ that General American is short of.
Monothongs,
Good point.
Mr. Phone,
Do I think that "the RP accent is the accent with the most phonemes or is that just a myth?" I think that it is probably just a myth but I can't be sure being, as I am, no linguist.
"the RP accent isn't the only accent that uses [o]." this is true. My accent has an /o/ and it's not RP and there are many other accents with /o/ too. Also there are many other phonemes besides /o/ that General American is short of.
Monothongs,
Good point.
Wednesday, September 15, 2004, 03:06 GMT
Are there any phonemes that RP is short of.
Wednesday, September 15, 2004, 03:34 GMT
Jim,
I ask this re: ESL because he/she/they wrote that certain phone differences (which could involve phonemes) aren't bothered with, so it's possible that standard phonemic differences are neglected.
I ask this re: ESL because he/she/they wrote that certain phone differences (which could involve phonemes) aren't bothered with, so it's possible that standard phonemic differences are neglected.