Monday, September 13, 2004, 00:57 GMT
Is it true that the RP accent is the accent with the most phonemes and that all the other accents have fewer phonemes than RP?
RP is the accent with the most phonemes?
Monday, September 13, 2004, 02:13 GMT
Has vuelto loco
Monday, September 13, 2004, 06:53 GMT
My accent, a random (aye, very random) mix of RP, Estuary, Cockney, Yorkshire, Scots, a sprinkling of General American, and a touch of French and Russian, has many more phonemes than RP.
I'm a native English speaker, if you're in doubt, born and bred in England.
I'm a native English speaker, if you're in doubt, born and bred in England.
Monday, September 13, 2004, 08:00 GMT
I'd like to learn this Random Chappie accent! <3
Monday, September 13, 2004, 08:03 GMT
Drive a nail through your tongue and drink a glass of turpentine. You'll sound just like him! Trust me!
Monday, September 13, 2004, 09:09 GMT
I would have thought RP has the least number of phonemes, because pronunciation is simplified and relatively more homophones are apparent.
Monday, September 13, 2004, 10:02 GMT
''My accent, a random (aye, very random) mix of RP, Estuary, Cockney, Yorkshire, Scots, a sprinkling of General American, and a touch of French and Russian, has many more phonemes than RP.''
''I'm a native English speaker, if you're in doubt, born and bred in England.''
Random Chappie, If your a native English speaker then why is your accent a mix of so many accents?
''I'm a native English speaker, if you're in doubt, born and bred in England.''
Random Chappie, If your a native English speaker then why is your accent a mix of so many accents?
Monday, September 13, 2004, 10:21 GMT
There are 43 phonemes in my accent. Does the RP accent have more than 43 phonemes?
1.[@]-cat, sat
2.[e]-sent, ten, set
3.[i]-sit, tin, sin, lit
4.[a:]-father, cot, caught
5.[^]-cut
6.[u]-could, would, book, put, cook, stood
7.[..]-suspect [the verb]
8.[ei]-saint, cake
9.[i:]-street, feed
10.[ai]-strike, pipe
11.[Ou]-coat, joke, hope
12.[u:]-cool, room, root, new, tune, Tuesday, dune, due
13.[ju:]-mute, beautiful, few, cube, pew
14.[o:r]-core, four, form, storm
15.[e:r]-fur, burn, learn, fern, bird, permit [the noun]
1.[@]-cat, sat
2.[e]-sent, ten, set
3.[i]-sit, tin, sin, lit
4.[a:]-father, cot, caught
5.[^]-cut
6.[u]-could, would, book, put, cook, stood
7.[..]-suspect [the verb]
8.[ei]-saint, cake
9.[i:]-street, feed
10.[ai]-strike, pipe
11.[Ou]-coat, joke, hope
12.[u:]-cool, room, root, new, tune, Tuesday, dune, due
13.[ju:]-mute, beautiful, few, cube, pew
14.[o:r]-core, four, form, storm
15.[e:r]-fur, burn, learn, fern, bird, permit [the noun]
16.[..r]-permit [the verb]
17.[oi]-coin, foyer,
18.[au]-cow, now, how
19.[i..]-idea
20.[b]-big
21.[d]-dig
22.[f]-fish
23.[g]-get
24.[h]-heat
25.[dZ]-jeep
26.[k]-cat, kitchen
27.[l]-lent
28.[m]-make
29.[n]-name
30.[p]-pop
31.[r]-road
32.[s]-snake, sun
33.[t]-table
34.[v]-vent
35.[w]-window
36.[j]-yes
37.[z]-zoo, xylophone, zip, cords
38.[tS]-church, chup
39.[N]-sing, thing, finger, singer
40.[S]-sharp, share, ship
41.[th]-think, threat
42.[TH]-then, that, this, there, father
43.[Z]-genre, beige, vision, television, usual, measure, pleasure
17.[oi]-coin, foyer,
18.[au]-cow, now, how
19.[i..]-idea
20.[b]-big
21.[d]-dig
22.[f]-fish
23.[g]-get
24.[h]-heat
25.[dZ]-jeep
26.[k]-cat, kitchen
27.[l]-lent
28.[m]-make
29.[n]-name
30.[p]-pop
31.[r]-road
32.[s]-snake, sun
33.[t]-table
34.[v]-vent
35.[w]-window
36.[j]-yes
37.[z]-zoo, xylophone, zip, cords
38.[tS]-church, chup
39.[N]-sing, thing, finger, singer
40.[S]-sharp, share, ship
41.[th]-think, threat
42.[TH]-then, that, this, there, father
43.[Z]-genre, beige, vision, television, usual, measure, pleasure
1.[@]-cat, sat
2.[e]-sent, ten, set
3.[i]-sit, tin, sin, lit
4.[a:]-father, cot, caught
5.[^]-cut
6.[u]-could, would, book, put, cook, stood
7.[..]-suspect [the verb]
8.[ei]-saint, cake
9.[i:]-street, feed
10.[ai]-strike, pipe
11.[Ou]-coat, joke, hope
12.[u:]-cool, room, root, new, tune, Tuesday, dune, due
13.[ju:]-mute, beautiful, few, cube, pew
14.[o:r]-core, four, form, storm
15.[e:r]-fur, burn, learn, fern, bird, permit [the noun]
1.[@]-cat, sat
2.[e]-sent, ten, set
3.[i]-sit, tin, sin, lit
4.[a:]-father, cot, caught
5.[^]-cut
6.[u]-could, would, book, put, cook, stood
7.[..]-suspect [the verb]
8.[ei]-saint, cake
9.[i:]-street, feed
10.[ai]-strike, pipe
11.[Ou]-coat, joke, hope
12.[u:]-cool, room, root, new, tune, Tuesday, dune, due
13.[ju:]-mute, beautiful, few, cube, pew
14.[o:r]-core, four, form, storm
15.[e:r]-fur, burn, learn, fern, bird, permit [the noun]
16.[..r]-permit [the verb]
17.[oi]-coin, foyer,
18.[au]-cow, now, how
19.[i..]-idea
20.[b]-big
21.[d]-dig
22.[f]-fish
23.[g]-get
24.[h]-heat
25.[dZ]-jeep
26.[k]-cat, kitchen
27.[l]-lent
28.[m]-make
29.[n]-name
30.[p]-pop
31.[r]-road
32.[s]-snake, sun
33.[t]-table
34.[v]-vent
35.[w]-window
36.[j]-yes
37.[z]-zoo, xylophone, zip, cords
38.[tS]-church, chup
39.[N]-sing, thing, finger, singer
40.[S]-sharp, share, ship
41.[th]-think, threat
42.[TH]-then, that, this, there, father
43.[Z]-genre, beige, vision, television, usual, measure, pleasure
17.[oi]-coin, foyer,
18.[au]-cow, now, how
19.[i..]-idea
20.[b]-big
21.[d]-dig
22.[f]-fish
23.[g]-get
24.[h]-heat
25.[dZ]-jeep
26.[k]-cat, kitchen
27.[l]-lent
28.[m]-make
29.[n]-name
30.[p]-pop
31.[r]-road
32.[s]-snake, sun
33.[t]-table
34.[v]-vent
35.[w]-window
36.[j]-yes
37.[z]-zoo, xylophone, zip, cords
38.[tS]-church, chup
39.[N]-sing, thing, finger, singer
40.[S]-sharp, share, ship
41.[th]-think, threat
42.[TH]-then, that, this, there, father
43.[Z]-genre, beige, vision, television, usual, measure, pleasure
Monday, September 13, 2004, 21:44 GMT
RP definitely has less phonemes that most other dialects of English. Canadian, London, New York, Welsh, and Boston accents all have more sounds in them than RP.
Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 02:47 GMT
I think people here are confusing phones with phonemes. Different varieties of English have variable numbers of phones (distinctive sounds), but the number of phonemes is much more constant. The phonemes have to be pretty much the same from one variety of English to the next, otherwise they would not be mutually intelligible.
For example, the number of non-phonemic diphthongs varies greatly from one variety of English to the next, but the number of phonemic diphthongs is virtually constant at three (now, toy, and eye).
You must be able to distinguish and pronounce a minimal set of phonemes in order to be understood in all varieties of English. Phonemes that are specific to a given variety of English can be ignored unless you plan to do all your listening and speaking in the company of people who speak that specific variety of English and you wish to maximize intelligibility with them (at the expense of intelligibility with speakers of other varieties).
RP and all other varieties of English have a lot of useless phones—sounds that are distinctive but contribute nothing to meaning, especially when intercommunicating with speakers of other varieties of English. Learning these useless phones is a waste of time unless you wish to acquire a very specific English pronunciation.
General American English has about 36 phonemes that you really must be able to recognize and pronounce in order to communicate. It has about 40 common phones (phonemes plus their most common allophones). Regional varieties of American English tend to have more phones and occasionally an extra phoneme or two (this is typical of any variety of a language specific to a small population).
The most widely spoken varieties of a language tend to have the fewest essential phonemes, because the greater the diversity of speakers, the fewer the number of phonemes that can be reliably recognized and pronounced by all. Thus, the most widely spoken varieties of a language often tend to be the simplest phonologically. RP is a standard, but an artificial one (hardly anyone is a native speaker of RP), so it doesn't quite follow this rule, although American English does.
For example, the number of non-phonemic diphthongs varies greatly from one variety of English to the next, but the number of phonemic diphthongs is virtually constant at three (now, toy, and eye).
You must be able to distinguish and pronounce a minimal set of phonemes in order to be understood in all varieties of English. Phonemes that are specific to a given variety of English can be ignored unless you plan to do all your listening and speaking in the company of people who speak that specific variety of English and you wish to maximize intelligibility with them (at the expense of intelligibility with speakers of other varieties).
RP and all other varieties of English have a lot of useless phones—sounds that are distinctive but contribute nothing to meaning, especially when intercommunicating with speakers of other varieties of English. Learning these useless phones is a waste of time unless you wish to acquire a very specific English pronunciation.
General American English has about 36 phonemes that you really must be able to recognize and pronounce in order to communicate. It has about 40 common phones (phonemes plus their most common allophones). Regional varieties of American English tend to have more phones and occasionally an extra phoneme or two (this is typical of any variety of a language specific to a small population).
The most widely spoken varieties of a language tend to have the fewest essential phonemes, because the greater the diversity of speakers, the fewer the number of phonemes that can be reliably recognized and pronounced by all. Thus, the most widely spoken varieties of a language often tend to be the simplest phonologically. RP is a standard, but an artificial one (hardly anyone is a native speaker of RP), so it doesn't quite follow this rule, although American English does.
Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 07:30 GMT
<<My accent, a random (aye, very random) mix of RP, Estuary, Cockney, Yorkshire, Scots, a sprinkling of General American, and a touch of French and Russian, has many more phonemes than RP.
I'm a native English speaker, if you're in doubt, born and bred in England>>
Random:
My dear Sassenach friend fae south of yon border! ...do you eat a lot of plums as well? What form does the Scots bit in between take then? ;-)
I'm a native English speaker, if you're in doubt, born and bred in England>>
Random:
My dear Sassenach friend fae south of yon border! ...do you eat a lot of plums as well? What form does the Scots bit in between take then? ;-)
Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 07:33 GMT
<<Random Chappie, If your a native English speaker then why is your accent a mix of so many accents?>>
Mr Phone:
Our Random just likes to get around a wee bit....maybe he doesnae like sticking around in one place too long! ;-)
Mr Phone:
Our Random just likes to get around a wee bit....maybe he doesnae like sticking around in one place too long! ;-)
Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 09:34 GMT
>>RP and all other varieties of English have a lot of useless phones<<
Maybe so from the perspective of an uncultivated or unworldly American. Americans have this cumbersome and unnecessary R sound at the end of many words and in between syllables. Also, American English has many homophones which is irritating and often muddles meaning in a given context. However, to Americans their spoken English is perfectly natural and logical, but from another perspective, it's illogical and unaesthetic. But I don't have a problem with that or intolerant folk!
Maybe so from the perspective of an uncultivated or unworldly American. Americans have this cumbersome and unnecessary R sound at the end of many words and in between syllables. Also, American English has many homophones which is irritating and often muddles meaning in a given context. However, to Americans their spoken English is perfectly natural and logical, but from another perspective, it's illogical and unaesthetic. But I don't have a problem with that or intolerant folk!
Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 10:09 GMT
''>>RP and all other varieties of English have a lot of useless phones<<''
''Maybe so from the perspective of an uncultivated or unworldly American. Americans have this cumbersome and unnecessary R sound at the end of many words and in between syllables. Also, American English has many homophones which is irritating and often muddles meaning in a given context.''
Um, Mi5 Mick, the ''R'' sound at the end of those words and between syllables is very necessary to distinguish many words that are homonyms in other accents. Such as all these,
awe-or/ore/oar
law-lore
Shaw-shore
saw-sore
gnaw-nor
caw-core
maw-more
flaw-floor
raw-roar
paw-pore/poor/pour
pawn-porn
paws/pause-pores/pours
cause-cores
saws-sores
sauce-source
sawed-sword
sort-sought
caught-court
fought-fort
taught-tort
talk-torque
farther/father
tort/taught
sore/saw
nor/gnaw
core/caw
more/maw
sought/sort
source/sauce
sword/sawed
sores/saws
cores/cause
pores/pours/paws/pause
floor/flaw
roar/raw
pensular/pensula
larva/lava
That sure is a lot of homonyms non-rhotic speakers have to deal with. How can they stand not being able to distinction them?
R sound at the end of many words and in between syllables is not cumbersome and unnecessary and it's not only Americans that use it. Canadians, Irish, Scots, Some other British accents also use it.
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
I don't think I'm confusing phonemes with phones.
''Maybe so from the perspective of an uncultivated or unworldly American. Americans have this cumbersome and unnecessary R sound at the end of many words and in between syllables. Also, American English has many homophones which is irritating and often muddles meaning in a given context.''
Um, Mi5 Mick, the ''R'' sound at the end of those words and between syllables is very necessary to distinguish many words that are homonyms in other accents. Such as all these,
awe-or/ore/oar
law-lore
Shaw-shore
saw-sore
gnaw-nor
caw-core
maw-more
flaw-floor
raw-roar
paw-pore/poor/pour
pawn-porn
paws/pause-pores/pours
cause-cores
saws-sores
sauce-source
sawed-sword
sort-sought
caught-court
fought-fort
taught-tort
talk-torque
farther/father
tort/taught
sore/saw
nor/gnaw
core/caw
more/maw
sought/sort
source/sauce
sword/sawed
sores/saws
cores/cause
pores/pours/paws/pause
floor/flaw
roar/raw
pensular/pensula
larva/lava
That sure is a lot of homonyms non-rhotic speakers have to deal with. How can they stand not being able to distinction them?
R sound at the end of many words and in between syllables is not cumbersome and unnecessary and it's not only Americans that use it. Canadians, Irish, Scots, Some other British accents also use it.
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
I don't think I'm confusing phonemes with phones.
Tuesday, September 14, 2004, 10:22 GMT
You'll need a lot more words to persuade me. Their meanings can be derived from context.