(Spanish) Creo que entendi lo que dijeron, segun esto los brasileños mezclan "tu" con "usted" (tu/voce) es como si yo dijera: "Usted tienes mucho que decir" obviamente estaria mal, fue eso lo que comentaron?
Are Portuguese and Brazilian the same language?
(English) I believe that understanding what they said, accordingly Brazilians mix "your" with "you" (your / voce) is as if I read: "You have a lot to say" obviously would be wrong, that was what we discussed?
Okay that translation (which is wrong BTW) wasn't mine, the comment I made in Spanish wasn't meant to be translated.
Mixing pronouns is not rare, in languages:
Brazilian Portuguese: Você é belo. Eu te amo. (você + te; instead of você + você)
Continental Portuguese: Vocês são belos. Amo-vos (vocês + vos; instead of vocês + os)
Argentinian Spanish: Como te llamás vos? (Te + vos)
Italian: Gli dico instead of Dico loro.
English: Everybody respects their mother. (instead of his/her)
Brazilian Portuguese: Você é belo. Eu te amo. (você + te; instead of você + você)
Continental Portuguese: Vocês são belos. Amo-vos (vocês + vos; instead of vocês + os)
Argentinian Spanish: Como te llamás vos? (Te + vos)
Italian: Gli dico instead of Dico loro.
English: Everybody respects their mother. (instead of his/her)
<<Brazilian Portuguese: Você é belo. Eu te amo. (você + te; instead of você + você)
Continental Portuguese: Vocês são belos. Amo-vos (vocês + vos; instead of vocês + os) >>
I wouldn't call this mixing pronouns...
Yes, "você" is usually conjugated in the third person, but it doesn't "belong" anywhere, it changes accordingly.
As you know, você = tu = vós, in different degrees of formality.
Saying "Eu te amo" (I love you) is far different than "Eu o amo" (I love him).
Same for "amo-vos/ vos amo/ amo vocês" (I love you all) instead of "amo-os/ os amo" (I love them).
For "everybody" as well, even though singular when conjugated, it still refers to a group of people...
Continental Portuguese: Vocês são belos. Amo-vos (vocês + vos; instead of vocês + os) >>
I wouldn't call this mixing pronouns...
Yes, "você" is usually conjugated in the third person, but it doesn't "belong" anywhere, it changes accordingly.
As you know, você = tu = vós, in different degrees of formality.
Saying "Eu te amo" (I love you) is far different than "Eu o amo" (I love him).
Same for "amo-vos/ vos amo/ amo vocês" (I love you all) instead of "amo-os/ os amo" (I love them).
For "everybody" as well, even though singular when conjugated, it still refers to a group of people...
''amo-os/ os amo'' means I love you all, in more formal language
compare with Spanihs: los amo (a Ustedes)
compare with Spanihs: los amo (a Ustedes)
<<''amo-os/ os amo'' means I love you all, in more formal language >>
No, it doesn't.
It's true, "Eu o amo" can mean "I love you" in a very formal way, like "Eu o amo, senhor", but it doesn't work the same way for the plural, not in Portuguese.
No, it doesn't.
It's true, "Eu o amo" can mean "I love you" in a very formal way, like "Eu o amo, senhor", but it doesn't work the same way for the plural, not in Portuguese.
(Spanish)
Te amo - I love you (normal)
Lo amo - I love you (formal)
Los amo (a ustedes) - I love you all
Los amo (a ellos) - I love them
Te amo - I love you (normal)
Lo amo - I love you (formal)
Los amo (a ustedes) - I love you all
Los amo (a ellos) - I love them
Lo amo - I love you (formal)
This is incorrect. You have to say Le amo ( I love you in formal fashion).
This is incorrect. You have to say Le amo ( I love you in formal fashion).
<<Lo amo - I love you (formal)
This is incorrect. You have to say Le amo ( I love you in formal fashion).>>
He was right. "Le amo." is leismo, not standard Spanish.
This is incorrect. You have to say Le amo ( I love you in formal fashion).>>
He was right. "Le amo." is leismo, not standard Spanish.
JC: before I say anything about the imperative form of the verb as used by brazilians I would liketo comment this sentence you wrote: "...If European Portuguese were so superior, it wouldn't have to borrow so much from French. You guys don't even have "breakfast" because "Pequeno almoço" is a lousy copy from French..."
I honestly must say that I do not like the "pequeno almoço" either. But only because it is an unpractical, long, ugly, composed word. But do you think that you brazilian "café da manhã" is a better alternative? "Café da manhã" is a misleading, innacurate, confusing term to name the first meal of the day, since you do not necessarily drink coffe alone after you get up. And many people do not even drink coffe, they may prefer tea, etc. However, in Portuguese you can also say "desjejun", which is actually the word my portuguese parents used at home.
And what I wrote about pronouns and verb conjugation of Brazilian Portuguese is not only based on songs or how my brazilian friends speak. It rather reflects the way the majority of brazilians speak regardless of their education level. It is not necessarily wrong for you in Brazil, but quite the opposite. And I think it is OK so. The only thing is that foreigners who speak European Portuguese (even if we are only 10 million vs 180 million) do not have it easy to learn or follow the logic of your grammar.
I honestly must say that I do not like the "pequeno almoço" either. But only because it is an unpractical, long, ugly, composed word. But do you think that you brazilian "café da manhã" is a better alternative? "Café da manhã" is a misleading, innacurate, confusing term to name the first meal of the day, since you do not necessarily drink coffe alone after you get up. And many people do not even drink coffe, they may prefer tea, etc. However, in Portuguese you can also say "desjejun", which is actually the word my portuguese parents used at home.
And what I wrote about pronouns and verb conjugation of Brazilian Portuguese is not only based on songs or how my brazilian friends speak. It rather reflects the way the majority of brazilians speak regardless of their education level. It is not necessarily wrong for you in Brazil, but quite the opposite. And I think it is OK so. The only thing is that foreigners who speak European Portuguese (even if we are only 10 million vs 180 million) do not have it easy to learn or follow the logic of your grammar.
-"Café da manhã" is a misleading, innacurate, confusing term to name the first meal of the day, since you do not necessarily drink coffe alone after you get up. -
Café da manhã has nothing to do with coffee, if coffee is drunk up for breakfast, it's normally said cafezinho and not café:
''em meu café, eu nunca tomo um cafezinho''
for breakfast, I never drink coffee.
Café da manhã has nothing to do with coffee, if coffee is drunk up for breakfast, it's normally said cafezinho and not café:
''em meu café, eu nunca tomo um cafezinho''
for breakfast, I never drink coffee.
I wish the Iberian Union of 1580-1640 held together so that all of Iberia (and then South America) would be unified under Spanish. It would make sense since the langauges are so close.
"I honestly must say that I do not like the "pequeno almoço" either. But only because it is an unpractical, long, ugly, composed word. But do you think that you brazilian "café da manhã" is a better alternative? "Café da manhã" is a misleading, innacurate, confusing term to name the first meal of the day, since you do not necessarily drink coffe alone after you get up."
Guest: Someone else quoted that "desjejum" isn't Portuguese either. I also think it comes from the Spanish "Desayuno".
Guest:
Well, back to the "Café da manhã" topic, it reflects pretty much what Brazilians have during breakfast. Personally I don't know anyone who doesn't drink coffee in the morning. Maybe Portugal is different but BRAZILIANS love coffee!!!(I don't love soccer, though).
I wouldn't say that European is Portuguese is poor just because it doesn't have a word for describing "breakfast" (Therefore there's the need to borrow from French) but in this aspect Brazilian Portuguese raises the bar and shows another aspect of food culture. I like the Spanish "desayuno" word but it doesn't describe EXACTLY what is eaten in the morning to get rid of the "fasting condition". By the way, as far as I know Brazilians don't drink so much tee because there's an image that TEA is for sick people. Therefore I think that "Café da manhã" expresses very well what we have in the morning along with bread (That's how I was raised: sweet coffee with milk and a marvelous bread with cheese and butter!!!That's the ticket).
"And what I wrote about pronouns and verb conjugation of Brazilian Portuguese is not only based on songs or how my brazilian friends speak. It rather reflects the way the majority of brazilians speak regardless of their education level. "
Again I tell you that you're comparing different parameters in order to twist results and make European Portuguese look better.(Spoken language and music DO NOT use necessarily NORMATIVE grammar, therefore it's easy to say that Brazilian Portuguese has a poor or messy grammar).
If you want to have a concrete result you must separate PERFECTLY the speakers according to educational level, region and age so you can have a REAL language description. If you take as an example a person who isn't as educated and speaks using regional speech then it's easy to say that Brazilian grammar is messy. However, if you look at the grammar taught at school (I learned the 6 form conjugation :eu, tu, ele-ela, nós, vós, eles-elas), you can see that the language has a very clear grammar.
I found an interesting definition of Brazilian Portuguese in a book I'm reading right now ("A dialetologia no Brazil" by Carlota Ferreira, who was my teacher at Rio de Janeiro Federal University):
"Descrevendo a língua do Brasil, o Visconde de Pedra Branca dizia refletir, ela, a doçura do clima e dos habitantes ter sido ENRIQUECIDA (Emphasis given by me) por palavras e expressões novas, tomadas de empréstimos às línguas indígenas e INEXISTENTES (emphasis given by me) no português continental."
In addition to that, there are dozens of books describing Portuguese spoken in several regions in Brazil, which make your "comparison" or Brazilian Portuguese with European Portuguese TOTALLY INNACURATE.
Here's a list of some books dealing with regional Portuguese in Brazil:
1) Popularium sulriograndense 2) A linguagem popular amazônica 3) Glossário paraence 4) O linguajar carioca 5) A língua do Nordeste 6) O falar mineiro 7) Vocabulário gaúcho 8) O vocabulário pernambucano 9) Vocabulário amazonense 10) Vocabulário do Nordeste do Rio Grande do Sul
and I could go on and on just to show how RICH Brazilian Portuguese is and how mislead your comparison is because along with DIFFERENT vocabulary, one must also take into account different grammar patterns (Phonetics too).
Based on that I think you should compare written language if you want to have a better result. However, in order to do that you MUST know perfectly what you're comparing and not base your opinion on "bad speakers" (Grammatically speaking) or pop songs (I feel sick listening to the grammar slaughtering in many songs).
How about using "Machado de Assis" to do your comparison:
"ALGUM TEMPO hesitei se devia abrir estas memórias pelo princípio ou pelo fim, isto é, se poria em primeiro lugar o meu nascimento ou a minha morte. Suposto o uso vulgar seja começar pelo nascimento, duas considerações me levaram a adotar diferente método: a primeira é que eu não sou propriamente um autor defunto mas um defunto autor, para quem a campa foi outro berço; a segunda é que o escrito ficaria assim mais galante e mais novo. Moisés, que também contou a sua morte, não a pôs no intróito, mas no cabo: diferença radical entre este livro e o Pentateuco." (Memórias Póstumas de Brás Cubas).
Fui!!
Guest: Someone else quoted that "desjejum" isn't Portuguese either. I also think it comes from the Spanish "Desayuno".
Guest:
Well, back to the "Café da manhã" topic, it reflects pretty much what Brazilians have during breakfast. Personally I don't know anyone who doesn't drink coffee in the morning. Maybe Portugal is different but BRAZILIANS love coffee!!!(I don't love soccer, though).
I wouldn't say that European is Portuguese is poor just because it doesn't have a word for describing "breakfast" (Therefore there's the need to borrow from French) but in this aspect Brazilian Portuguese raises the bar and shows another aspect of food culture. I like the Spanish "desayuno" word but it doesn't describe EXACTLY what is eaten in the morning to get rid of the "fasting condition". By the way, as far as I know Brazilians don't drink so much tee because there's an image that TEA is for sick people. Therefore I think that "Café da manhã" expresses very well what we have in the morning along with bread (That's how I was raised: sweet coffee with milk and a marvelous bread with cheese and butter!!!That's the ticket).
"And what I wrote about pronouns and verb conjugation of Brazilian Portuguese is not only based on songs or how my brazilian friends speak. It rather reflects the way the majority of brazilians speak regardless of their education level. "
Again I tell you that you're comparing different parameters in order to twist results and make European Portuguese look better.(Spoken language and music DO NOT use necessarily NORMATIVE grammar, therefore it's easy to say that Brazilian Portuguese has a poor or messy grammar).
If you want to have a concrete result you must separate PERFECTLY the speakers according to educational level, region and age so you can have a REAL language description. If you take as an example a person who isn't as educated and speaks using regional speech then it's easy to say that Brazilian grammar is messy. However, if you look at the grammar taught at school (I learned the 6 form conjugation :eu, tu, ele-ela, nós, vós, eles-elas), you can see that the language has a very clear grammar.
I found an interesting definition of Brazilian Portuguese in a book I'm reading right now ("A dialetologia no Brazil" by Carlota Ferreira, who was my teacher at Rio de Janeiro Federal University):
"Descrevendo a língua do Brasil, o Visconde de Pedra Branca dizia refletir, ela, a doçura do clima e dos habitantes ter sido ENRIQUECIDA (Emphasis given by me) por palavras e expressões novas, tomadas de empréstimos às línguas indígenas e INEXISTENTES (emphasis given by me) no português continental."
In addition to that, there are dozens of books describing Portuguese spoken in several regions in Brazil, which make your "comparison" or Brazilian Portuguese with European Portuguese TOTALLY INNACURATE.
Here's a list of some books dealing with regional Portuguese in Brazil:
1) Popularium sulriograndense 2) A linguagem popular amazônica 3) Glossário paraence 4) O linguajar carioca 5) A língua do Nordeste 6) O falar mineiro 7) Vocabulário gaúcho 8) O vocabulário pernambucano 9) Vocabulário amazonense 10) Vocabulário do Nordeste do Rio Grande do Sul
and I could go on and on just to show how RICH Brazilian Portuguese is and how mislead your comparison is because along with DIFFERENT vocabulary, one must also take into account different grammar patterns (Phonetics too).
Based on that I think you should compare written language if you want to have a better result. However, in order to do that you MUST know perfectly what you're comparing and not base your opinion on "bad speakers" (Grammatically speaking) or pop songs (I feel sick listening to the grammar slaughtering in many songs).
How about using "Machado de Assis" to do your comparison:
"ALGUM TEMPO hesitei se devia abrir estas memórias pelo princípio ou pelo fim, isto é, se poria em primeiro lugar o meu nascimento ou a minha morte. Suposto o uso vulgar seja começar pelo nascimento, duas considerações me levaram a adotar diferente método: a primeira é que eu não sou propriamente um autor defunto mas um defunto autor, para quem a campa foi outro berço; a segunda é que o escrito ficaria assim mais galante e mais novo. Moisés, que também contou a sua morte, não a pôs no intróito, mas no cabo: diferença radical entre este livro e o Pentateuco." (Memórias Póstumas de Brás Cubas).
Fui!!