Japanese more difficult than Korean, or vice-versa?

<<Also, why'd it be easier to learn hangul rather than kanji? >>

Unlike kanji, Korean Hangul is an alphabet, and as such each sound is represented by a distinct letter per phoneme.

But unlike Western languages, Hangul letters are constructed in such a way as to build composite syllables, like Kanji. But each syllable can be broken down into individual, reusable letters, unlike Kanji.

Therefore, knowing the Hangul letters, it is possible to "sound-out" each syllable to gain comprehension.

Modern Hangul has 24 letters: 14 consonants and 10 vowels. W-glides are constructed using 'U' or 'O' + another vowel (eg. "wa" would be long 'o' + 'a')

Jamo (자모; 字母) or natsori (낱소리) are the units that make up the Hangul alphabet. Ja means letter or character, and mo means mother, so the name suggests that the jamo are the building-blocks of the script.

There are 51 jamo, of which 24 are equivalent to letters of the Latin alphabet. The other 27 jamo are clusters of two or sometimes three of these letters. Of the 24 simple jamo, fourteen are consonants (ja-eum 자음, 子音 "child sounds") and ten are vowels (mo-eum 모음, 母音 "mother sounds"). Five of the simple consonant letters are doubled to form the five "tense" (faucalized) consonants (see below), while another eleven clusters are formed of two different consonant letters. The ten vowel jamo can be combined to form eleven diphthongs. Here is a summary:

* 14 simple consonant letters: ㄱ, ㄴ, ㄷ, ㄹ, ㅁ, ㅂ, ㅅ, ㅇ, ㅈ, ㅊ, ㅋ, ㅌ, ㅍ, ㅎ, plus obsolete ᄛ, ㅱ, ㅸ, ᄼ, ᄾ, ㅿ (alveolar), ㆁ (velar), ᅎ, ᅐ, ᅔ, ᅕ, ㆄ, ㆆ
* 5 double letters (glottalized): ㄲ, ㄸ, ㅃ, ㅆ, ㅉ, plus obsolete ㅥ, ᄙ, ㅹ, ᄽ, ᄿ, ᅇ, ᇮ, ᅏ, ᅑ, ㆅ
* 11 consonant clusters: ㄳ, ㄵ, ㄶ, ㄺ, ㄻ, ㄼ, ㄽ, ㄾ, ㄿ, ㅀ, ㅄ, plus obsolete ᇃ, ᄓ, ㅦ, ᄖ, ㅧ, ㅨ, ᇉ, ᄗ, ᇋ, ᄘ, ㅪ, ㅬ, ᇘ, ㅭ, ᇚ, ᇛ, ㅮ, ㅯ, ㅰ, ᇠ, ᇡ, ㅲ, ᄟ, ㅳ, ᇣ, ㅶ, ᄨ, ㅷ, ᄪ, ᇥ, ㅺ, ㅻ, ㅼ, ᄰ, ᄱ, ㅽ, ᄵ, ㅾ, ᄷ, ᄸ, ᄹ, ᄺ, ᄻ, ᅁ, ᅂ, ᅃ, ᅄ, ᅅ, ᅆ, ᅈ, ᅉ, ᅊ, ᅋ, ᇬ, ᇭ, ㆂ, ㆃ, ᇯ, ᅍ, ᅒ, ᅓ, ᅖ, ᇵ, ᇶ, ᇷ, ᇸ, and obsolete triple clusters ᇄ, ㅩ, ᇏ, ᇑ, ᇒ, ㅫ, ᇔ, ᇕ, ᇖ, ᇞ, ㅴ, ㅵ, ᄤ, ᄥ, ᄦ, ᄳ, ᄴ

* 6 simple vowel letters: ㅏ, ㅓ, ㅗ, ㅜ, ㅡ, ㅣ, plus obsolete ㆍ
* 4 simple iotized vowel letters (semi consonant-semi vowel): ㅑ, ㅕ, ㅛ, ㅠ, plus obsolete ᆜ, ᆝ, ᆢ
* 11 diphthongs: ㅐ, ㅒ, ㅔ, ㅖ, ㅘ, ㅙ, ㅚ, ㅝ, ㅞ, ㅟ, ㅢ, plus obsolete ᅶ, ᅷ, ᅸ, ᅹ, ᅺ, ᅻ, ᅼ, ᅽ, ᅾ, ᅿ, ᆀ, ᆁ, ᆂ, ᆃ, ㆇ, ㆈ, ᆆ, ᆇ, ㆉ, ᆉ, ᆊ, ᆋ, ᆌ, ᆍ, ᆎ, ᆏ, ᆐ, ㆊ, ㆋ, ᆓ, ㆌ, ᆕ, ᆖ, ᆗ, ᆘ, ᆙ, ᆚ, ᆛ, ᆟ, ᆠ, ㆎ

Four of the simple vowel jamo are derived by means of a short stroke to signify iotation (a preceding i sound): ㅑ ya, ㅕ yeo, ㅛ yo, and ㅠ yu. These four are counted as part of the 24 simple jamo because the iotating stroke taken out of context does not represent y. In fact, there is no separate jamo for y.

Of the simple consonants, ㅊ chieut, ㅋ kieuk, ㅌ tieut, and ㅍ pieup are aspirated derivatives of ㅈ jieut, ㄱ giyeok, ㄷ digeut, and ㅂ bieup, respectively, formed by combining the unaspirated letters with an extra stroke.

The doubled letters are ㄲ ssang-giyeok (kk: ssang- 쌍 "double"), ㄸ ssang-digeut (tt), ㅃ ssang-bieup (pp), ㅆ ssang-siot (ss), and ㅉ ssang-jieut (jj). Double jamo do not represent geminate consonants, but rather a "tense" phonation.


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Thanks for the excellent posting Kate. I thought of doing it myself but couldn't do it better!!!

However, so many letters could scare the heck of everybody so I would keep it as simple as I have learned:

Basic consonants (14): ㄱ(k,g) , ㄴ(n), ㄷ(t,d) , ㄹ(r), ㅁ(m), ㅂ(p,b), ㅅ(s), ㅇ(final n and vowel marker), ㅈ(ch,j), ㅊ(aspirated ch), ㅋ(aspirated k), ㅌ(aspirated t), ㅍ(aspirated p), ㅎ(h)

Basic vowels (10): ㅏ(a), ㅑ(ya)ㅓ(o), ㅕ(yo),ㅗ(o), ㅛ(yo),ㅜ(u), ㅠ(yu),ㅡ(wi), ㅣ(i). Please note that the vowels 오 and 어 have different sounds. The rest of the vowels must be learned hands on!!!

Korean is that simple to start reading and writing whereas in Japanese one must learn Hiragana and Katakana (96 letters!!!) before even starting learning the kanjis!!! Man, what a hard work!!!

Cheers and Korean is cool to learn!!!

Yes but I heard that Korean is tricky just for that!

In the beginning it appears easier than Japanese because of its writing system but the real problems come when one have to deal with the grammar, because it can become as difficult (or even more) as the Japanese one, am I right?

Yup, Japanese grammar is easier.

"The real problems come when one have to deal with the grammar, because it can become as difficult (or even more) as the Japanese one, am I right"
What exactly do you mean with grammar? Well, I'm suspect to say because I learned Korean after being fluent in Japanese and didn't feel any special difficulty in learning Korean. Even the system of honorifics is simpler than in Japanese. If I still remember one should add 시 to the verb to make if into an honorific whereas in Japanese there are special forms for each verb and the reply should be in the humble form. In Korean I think that the person to whom the honorific form has been addressed can reply in the same way.
My biggest problem in Korean is to deal with the particles because the usage in Japanese and Korean might be misleading such as the usage of the particle へ(e) in Japanese which indicates direction but has two variations in Korean, namely 에 (for point of arrival) such as in 언니집에가요 (My sister is going home) and 로 indicating direction such as 어디로가십니까? (Where are you going?). I really don't know which one is more difficult but one thing is for sure: Neither Japanese nor Korean are easy languages to master!!!!

Cheers!!!

<<What exactly do you mean with grammar? Well, I'm suspect to say because I learned Korean after being fluent in Japanese and didn't feel any special difficulty in learning Korean. Even the system of honorifics is simpler than in Japanese. If I still remember one should add 시 to the verb to make if into an honorific whereas in Japanese there are special forms for each verb and the reply should be in the humble form.>>

Hmmmm. Well, you must have learnt a very basic form of conversational Korean, because Korean honorifics are much more complex than this. You must have learned the simple "add -yo" or "-bnida (i.e. -mnida)" to the verb to make it polite.

In truth (and I am half-Korean and speak Korean as one of my first languages) Korean honorifics can be a nightmare. There are so many different forms, and in addition, wholly different words (register) one must use with different levels of people.

For example the verb "come" in the imperitive form (different honorofics are used for other moods altogether, but I'm keeping it simple)

Simple: oa ("wa")
Simple pejorative: ora ("o-ra")
Simple polite: oayo ("wa-yo")
polite: "osio/oseyo"
formal: "osipsio"

Added to these basic forms are particles that can suggest certain aspects that can reinforce the honorofic:

jeom osipsio (do please come!)
oseo osipsio

You probably learnt a more detailed Japanese as opposed to Korean

"In truth (and I am half-Korean and speak Korean as one of my first languages) Korean honorifics can be a nightmare. There are so many different forms, and in addition, wholly different words (register) one must use with different levels of people. "

Thanks for the detailed explanation but using different words depending on the people you talk to isn't peculiar to Korean.

"For example the verb "come" in the imperitive form (different honorofics are used for other moods altogether, but I'm keeping it simple) "

There's no need to keep it simple because honorifics in Korean, at least compared to Japanese, aren't that complicated...

"Simple: oa ("wa")
Simple pejorative: ora ("o-ra")
Simple polite: oayo ("wa-yo")
polite: "osio/oseyo"
formal: "osipsio"

Added to these basic forms are particles that can suggest certain aspects that can reinforce the honorofic:

jeom osipsio (do please come!)
oseo osipsio "

Looking at all the forms you showed one can see clearly that the stem "o" didn't change and the form "shi" was added in the polite and formal forms.

I have a question, though. How do you reply if people tell you osipsio? I believe you can reply in the same way whereas in Japanese you're supposed to use the "humble" form, which I think doesn't exist in Korean.

Now let's take a look at the verb "kuru" (to come) in Japanese:

Informal: kuru
neutral form: kimasu
humble form: mairu
polite: Irassharu
In addition to these the potencial form "korareru" can be used as a kind of polite form.
There also another form of polite expression with the structure "o" + stem+ naru" for instance "ohanashi ni naru" (do you speak). You can see clearly that the stems have changed and it isn't possible to figure out the verb just by listening.

Back to the "kuru" verb, in the region where I live there's also the dialect form "-haru" attached to the stem, which makes the forms even more complicated.

Another difficult thing about Japanese is because you don't use absolute polite forms. For instance, when you are working in a company you're not supposed to refer to your coworkers as to "-san" or use the polite verbs when asked is mr. so and so is in the office.

Let me give you an example.

Somebody calls the office and asks:
A: Is mr. Kim in in office? (金さんはいらっしゃいますか）
B: No he's(Kim) not. (いいえ、金は居りません）
One can see clearly that the person calling the company used a polite form (irassharu:to be) to refer to Mr. Kim. However, the person answering the phone couldn't say Kim-san because he has to be humble about the company and refers to Mr. Kim as KIM and used the humble form of the verb "iru", which is "oru".

How would you have such a dialogue in Korean? I bet you would used Mr. Kim and 게시다 in both situations.


Cheers!!!

Why bother with Korean at all. Most Koreans are fluent in English.

"Why bother with Korean at all. Most Koreans are fluent in English."
I read on the website "Learn any language" that the biggest difficulty in Korean is not that it is difficult, rather that many people in Korea want to practice their English and won't waste any time trying to correct one's Korean.

"Despite the attractiveness of South Korea culturally and economically, advanced learners report that it is difficult to use the language since nobody will correct you if you make a mistake and people will volunteer to speak in English whenever they can."
Source: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/e/languages/korean/index.html

In my case I met more people who speak Japanese than English but most of the time I had to survive with my basic Korean. Korea is definitely a country I want to visit again because people are friendly, food is nice and Kimuchi rules!!!

Cheers!!

<<Why bother with Korean at all. Most Koreans are fluent in English. >>

No they're not. Even the hordes of Koreans that come to my country to study English speak it terribly.

I have not met many first-generation Koreans who are good at English. I think this is because they stay in their community. Some of them can speak broken English or very formal English, but I have never met a Korean who came here as an adult who sounds like a native speaker of English.

I'm not very good at Korean, but I haven't tried very hard and my motivation is medium-low to learn it.

It doesn't seem more difficult than Japanese. I think it may be slightly easier. The writing system is not too bad (unless you are the kind of person who wants to avoid all non-latin scripts) and has an interesting history.

I speak Japanese.

"Now let's take a look at the verb "kuru" (to come) in Japanese:

Informal: kuru
neutral form: kimasu
humble form: mairu
polite: Irassharu
In addition to these the potencial form "korareru" can be used as a kind of polite form. "

After writing this I went to double check on the forms and realized I had left out some.
polite: oide ni naru, mieru, omie ni naru
humble: ukagau, oukagai suru

Trust me, honorifics in Japanese are so difficult that even native speakers have trouble using.

Cheers!!

"How would you have such a dialogue in Korean? I bet you would used Mr. Kim and 게시다 in both situations. "

I apologize for replying to my own question but I found an article on Korean honorifics as follows:

"韓国語の敬語について、忘れてはならないポイントが一つ。韓国では身内の人（両親、会社の上司など）でも、年上であったり、敬意を表す必要がある人のことを対外的に話すときは、必ず敬語を用います。どういうことかというと、以下の例文を見てください。

【例】～電話口でお客さんに対して
×　사장님은 없습니다（サジャンニムン　オプスムニダ／社長はおりません）
○ 사장님은 안 계십니다（サジャンニムン　アンゲシムニダ／社長はいらっしゃいません）"

Source:http://allabout.co.jp/study/korean/closeup/CU20080318A/index2.htm

The correct form of addressing one's superior in Korean is the one that starts with a circle.

감사합니다