Japanese more difficult than Korean, or vice-versa?

In Japanese, what would be correct? Would it be "社長はおりません。"?

"In Japanese, what would be correct? Would it be "社長はおりません。"
Perfectly correct!!! One shouldn't show respect toward people in one's company when talking to people from outside. That's the main difference between Korean and Japanese honorifics.

To whoever might be interested in Japanese honorifics I've found the following link:

http://web.hc.keio.ac.jp/~matsuoka/keigo.htm

Have fun!!!

To whoever might be interested in Japanese honorifics I've found the following link:

http://web.hc.keio.ac.jp/~matsuoka/keigo.htm

Have fun!!!


Nem todos consiguem ler textos em japones :-)

"Nem todos consiguem ler textos em japones :-)"

How about this link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keigo

Enjoy!!!

<<"Simple: oa ("wa")
Simple pejorative: ora ("o-ra")
Simple polite: oayo ("wa-yo")
polite: "osio/oseyo"
formal: "osipsio">>

These forms are all imperative (command) forms only.

present indicative are greater in number:
ora
oda
oa-ya (used with children)
oni (used with children)
oayo (same form as one of the imperatives)
onda
onunda
obnida

and there are variations using other verbs like 'issda' ("there is")
ogo issda = to be going
ogo isseo
ogo issubnida
etc

when you get into forms using the polite infix 'si' (shi) you get into innumerable possible combinations

osinunda
osinunyo
osinda
osinunyo
osinungunyo
osijiyo
etc

Japanese forms are elaborate, but Korean are more so. many time over.

also Korean has different words for personal pronouns, and there is a humble form

jega/jeonun = I (humble form)
nanun/naega = I
(no elevated form for I)

neonun = you [singular] (lower form)
tangsinun = you (peer level)
janega = you (honor form)

etc, etc

<<Informal: kuru
neutral form: kimasu
humble form: mairu
polite: Irassharu >>

J.C., are these different "forms"? These look like different *WORDS* or suppletive forms from different words

in which case Korean would be greater because it does this too, but I stuck to one verb only--the one with stem 'o' for demo purposes

I didn't catch this earlier

<<How would you have such a dialogue in Korean? I bet you would used Mr. Kim and 게시다 in both situations.
>>

We would have used either Kimssi/Kimnim/Kimkkesseo (there are various levels of respect as to title, not just 'ssi') and used the -si- particle in reference to the third party individual as a sign of respect. If I were answering politely to the caller, I would have double honorised the verb: once for Mr Kim and a second time to the caller, which allows for greater flexibility and variation than Japanese, and greater clarity without the need for alternative suppletive forms, though these are also employed

<<oni (used with children) >>

This child-form itself can be folded out into a multiplicity of variations too:
onunni
onunniya
oniya

This -ni form reminds me of another I forgot to mention above, a casual between friends form in -ne ("o-ne"), and another ending in -re ("o-re")

limitless

One other thing I'd like to point out just about the verbs in Korean is that there are two basic stems for each:

what I like to call a zero stem (for 'o' ["to come"] it would be "o")
and an 'a' or 'eo' stem (for 'o' ["to come"] it would be "oa" -> "wa") [whether it's 'a' or 'eo' depends on the vowel harmony/class of verb. 'o' uses 'a']

certain agglutinated particles are added to one or the other:
for instance, to say "I can come" you use the zero stem and add "-l" + "su" + a form of the verb "issda" as in: "o-l su isseo" (lit. "come-ablility there-is"

but to say something like "I have to come" you would need to use the particle "-ya hada" which uses the 'a'/'eo' form of the verb giving: "nanun wa-ya habnida"; not "nanun o-ya habnida"

There is also a -b- stem/form, epecially for adjectives ending in long 'u' (like maeun "hot/spicy") which causes it to become 'maebda' ("to be hot")

does Japanese have verb classes?

I just want to comment that this is one of the most interesting threads I have seen at Antimoon recently. The level is great!

I know you asked J.C., but I'll answer as far as I know. I'm not a linguist, so I'll let him deal with the technical terms. If you would look these verbs up in a book like "501" Verbs, you would find them under the same heading "kuru"-to come.

Informal: kuru
neutral form: kimasu
humble form: mairu
polite: Irassharu >>

"present indicative are greater in number:
ora
oda
oa-ya (used with children)
oni (used with children)
oayo (same form as one of the imperatives)
onda
onunda
obnida "

Thanks for introducing another aspect of Korean grammar but it would be easier if you could stick with one topic. Until now we have talked about honorifics an you introduced imperatives, which also have a lot of forms in Japanese:
Verb "kuru" :
Informal (Talking to inferiors or children): koi
Informal (Talking to friends): kite
Formal (In order of formality): Kite kudasai, kite kudasaimasenka, kite itadakemasu ka, kite itadakamasen deshou ka, irassshai)

About the present forms you introduces, are they just the VERB or have you added final particles? I would like to know how the VERBS CHANGE and not how one can add different nuances by using PARTICLES. In Japanese it is also possible to change the formality or meaning by adding particles like "yo", "ne" ,etc...

In either case, the forms you wrote are all predictable because the verb stem "o", which comes from the infinitive "oda" if present whereas the forms I gave you for the verb "kuru" are mostly different from the infinitive.

"and there are variations using other verbs like 'issda' ("there is")
ogo issda = to be going
ogo isseo
ogo issubnida
etc "

What does "ogo" mean? Regardless of that the verb "issda" doesn't chance it form so much and "bnida" if the marked for formality, isn+t it?

"when you get into forms using the polite infix 'si' (shi) you get into innumerable possible combinations

osinunda
osinunyo
osinda
osinunyo
osinungunyo
osijiyo
etc "

In despite of the many combinations I referred to the predictable aspect of Korean whereby "shi" indicates that there's formality whereas in Japanese one must know the word, which sometimes has nothing to do with the infinitive. For instance "kuru" becomes "irassharu". That is more difficult to guess than "oda" -"oshida"

"Japanese forms are elaborate, but Korean are more so. many time over.

also Korean has different words for personal pronouns, and there is a humble form

jega/jeonun = I (humble form)
nanun/naega = I
(no elevated form for I)

neonun = you [singular] (lower form)
tangsinun = you (peer level)
janega = you (honor form)

etc, etc"

Japanese also has many forms to express "I" and also has different forms for men and women.

Rude: Ore (only for man)
Informal: (for kids and men): boku
Informal for woman: atashi
Neutral: watashi, jibun
Formal : (wataKUshi)

As for expressing you, Japanese is co formal that one shouldn't say it but there are the following forms:
Rude(you will get a fight if you use it): omae, temae
Informal (Used from superiors to inferior): Kimi
Neutral: anata (In written language it can be written with the characters 貴方、貴女、貴男，彼方 showing respectively a form polite for both sexes, for a man, for a woman and then a neutral form)
Anata can also be used to refer to one's spouse.

<<How would you have such a dialogue in Korean? I bet you would used Mr. Kim and 게시다 in both situations.
>>

"We would have used either Kimssi/Kimnim/Kimkkesseo (there are various levels of respect as to title, not just 'ssi') and used the -si- particle in reference to the third party individual as a sign of respect. If I were answering politely to the caller, I would have double honorised the verb: once for Mr Kim and a second time to the caller, which allows for greater flexibility and variation than Japanese, and greater clarity without the need for alternative suppletive forms, though these are also employed"

Thanks for the explanation. However, in Japanese there are also the forms shi(氏）, san(さん）, sama（様） and tono(殿, which "shi" and "tono" used mainly in the written language. What I meant with this posting is that Korean doesn't show variation in the formal language by the fact that there's no differentiation in the way one replies a formal question regarding one's company. In Japanese one would have to keep a formal language to talk to the customers while using the humble language to refer to one's boss and superiors. I think that's much more difficult.(One would have to use 2 different languages at the same time)
In other words, Korean honorifics are very difficult to learn but once one learns them the situations for using them are predictable, i.e, use them every time one talks to one's superiors whereas in Japanese the situation must be assessed before talking.

How would you double honorise the verb? Wouldn't 게십닉까? be enough? In either case, Japanese can add formality endlessly, too.
In the dialogue I quoted one could also say: chotto oukagai shitai no desu ga, shachousama wa irassaimasu deshou ka (ちょっとお伺いしたいのですが、社長様はいらっしゃいます　でしょう　か）. That would be more formal than shacho- sama(님)

<<oni (used with children) >>

"This child-form itself can be folded out into a multiplicity of variations too:
onunni
onunniya
oniya

This -ni form reminds me of another I forgot to mention above, a casual between friends form in -ne ("o-ne"), and another ending in -re ("o-re")

limitless"
Could you give a better explanation as for what kind of 니(ni) ending you referring to? Is is the one expressing reason, question of just the informal marker? If you're referring to the latter, it can be expressed by "no" (の）or "kane" in Japanese.
Examples:
신이 크니 (靴が大きいの）: The shoe is big
그 모자가 싧으니 （この帽子が嫌かね）: I don't like this hat.

Source: Korean-Japanese Dictionary, Shougakukan, page 430

As you can see Japanese and Korean are very correspondent in this aspect. In Japanese there are also ways to talk from children your superiors.

p.s Summing out the forms you gave can we say that "ni" and "ya" are the markers for informality in Korean?

"One other thing I'd like to point out just about the verbs in Korean is that there are two basic stems for each:

what I like to call a zero stem (for 'o' ["to come"] it would be "o")
and an 'a' or 'eo' stem (for 'o' ["to come"] it would be "oa" -> "wa") [whether it's 'a' or 'eo' depends on the vowel harmony/class of verb. 'o' uses 'a'] "
I didn't understand what you mean here but I know that the verb "oda" (to come) is irregular because the intinitive is "oda" but it becomes "wayo" in the present.

"certain agglutinated particles are added to one or the other:
for instance, to say "I can come" you use the zero stem and add "-l" + "su" + a form of the verb "issda" as in: "o-l su isseo" (lit. "come-ablility there-is" "

What you're talking about here is the potential form. In Japanese it is formed by verb infinitive+koto ga dekiru. There is no form for the verb "there to be" in Japanese but the verb "kuru" (to come) would be "kuru koto ga dekiru" or "korareru".

"but to say something like "I have to come" you would need to use the particle "-ya hada" which uses the 'a'/'eo' form of the verb giving: "nanun wa-ya habnida"; not "nanun o-ya habnida" "
I also know this form in Korean, which in Japanese is expressed by "present negative form+to ikemasen" or "verb stem+nakereba narimasen".Being that the case, "kuru" would be "konakereba narimasen" or "konai to ikemasen".

There is also a -b- stem/form, epecially for adjectives ending in long 'u' (like maeun "hot/spicy") which causes it to become 'maebda' ("to be hot")
I don't know this aspect of Korean. Could you elaborate more on this?

"does Japanese have verb classes?"
Do you mean "transitive" and intransitive" verbs?

By the way, thanks for the interesting postings and for motivating me to study Korean again. It's good to debate and be able to learn!!! 감사합니다!