language switch in France, when and why did it happened?

<<On the contrary, they thought that Romance and Latin were the same thing until realized that their tongue did evolve too much from Latin to the point that Romance speakers no longer understood Ecclesiastical Latin used by the Church. Romance languages were known at those times as "Vulgar Latin". Hence the monks and such had to translate here are there to Romance from Latin. >>

No. The language at that time was Late Proto- or Common Romance (Romance before difusion into separate Old French, Old Spanish, etc)

Vulgar Latin is believed to be the ancestor of Proto-Romance. Vulgar Latin spans a wide range of time and the state of the language at its inception is very different from that near its end--almost two completely different languages.

At its beginning Vulgar Latin was near coloquial Classical Latin (Latin spoken by the Plebes of Rome); near its end it was greatly simplfied and mixed with Celtic/Germanic elements.

People in today Romance speaking countries were self-conscious of being Latin speakers until around 800 AD or so when the different Romance tongues were no longer mutually intelligible with Ecclesiastical Latin. That common "proto-Romance" is precissely Latin.

"""""""""At its beginning Vulgar Latin was near coloquial Classical Latin (Latin spoken by the Plebes of Rome); near its end it was greatly simplfied and mixed with Celtic/Germanic elements. """""""""""""

It should be: "near its end Vulgar Latin was greatly simplfied and mixed with Germanic elements." - in Romance languages, no Celtic elements are 100% ascertained and proven until today.

Guest Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:25 am GMT
People in today Romance speaking countries were self-conscious of being Latin speakers until around 800 AD or so when the different Romance tongues were no longer mutually intelligible with Ecclesiastical Latin. That common "proto-Romance" is precissely Latin.
_____________________________-

That´s correct!

"People in today Romance speaking countries were self-conscious of being Latin speakers until around 800 AD"

Absolutely wrong. The idea that Romance languages might be derived from Latin didn't emerge prior to the 16th century. The alleged "vulgar Latin" theory came out at that time but still fails to provide much convincing evidence.

You should read "The History of Britain Revealed" of Michael John Harper. The author says that English was spoken in England long before the Anglo-Saxon invasion, and that the Gauls actually spoke Old French... This seems to be an all too radical theory, but Harper's views are just as strongly supported as the official dogma about the origins of Old English or the Romance languages.

<<It should be: "near its end Vulgar Latin was greatly simplfied and mixed with Germanic elements." - in Romance languages, no Celtic elements are 100% ascertained and proven until today. >>

Well, there are Celtic elements in the form of lexicon:

Latin 'caballus', 'battuere' (batter, combat), 'camminus' (way, road), 'lancea' (lance), 'carrus' (car, charge, cargo), 'cambiāre'/'cambīre' (change, exchange), 'bulga' (budget), etc.

Medieval Latin has word 'burghesius" ( we can see it on St.Peter church in Rome).It is borrowing from Germanic languages.

<<Medieval Latin has word 'burghesius" ( we can see it on St.Peter church in Rome).It is borrowing from Germanic languages. >>

Mediaeval Latin is FULL of Germanic words, there's no question there:

sacire (seize), fredus/belfredus, theudiscus, bisont-, redare (array), blundus, feodum/ feudum (feudal), filtrum, stallum, installare, sapon-/sapo (soap), leti (liege, allegiance), etc

Tony, if you look at a map, you will notice that Holland is not a neighbour of the france.

French is a latin language, which contains some germanic words, the same happens too Italian.

Holland is not a neighbor in stricto senso but is close enough to France. The same happens with UK, they are 15 miles from each other.

Guest,


Holland is not our neighbour, that's it.
Our neighbours are UK, Belgium, Germany, Swiss, Italy, Spain, Monaco, Andorra, Brazil with Guyane but not holland.

If you speak in terms of stricto senso, Portugal, Greece and many others are our neighbours.

So use the right terms when you send a post.

" Holland is not our neighbour, that's it.
Our neighbours are UK, Belgium, Germany, Swiss, Italy, Spain, Monaco, Andorra, Brazil with Guyane but not holland.

If you speak in terms of stricto senso, Portugal, Greece and many others are our neighbours. "



I completly agree. Even if Netherlands is about one hour drive strait north from the northernmost point of France it is not a neighbour. Belgium between (unless you shoose to take in consideration the Island of St Martin in the caribean, which is divided in a french a a Dutch part, but in this case you'll have to consider that France main neighbour is Brazil, country whith which we have the longest border.

The same way The UK is not a neighbour, the tunnel under the channel is not condiered to represent a terrestrial border (for the simply reason that it is not on land but under the seas.)

Our neighbours are, from north to south:
Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Monaco, Andorra and Spain.

Belgian-french border is mainly along french-speaking region (Wallonia), about same for Luxembourg and Switzerland. France is serparated from England by a sea, and from Northerland by one country (with two "sub-countries" in it)... The main and almost only important border we have with a Germanic country is with Germany, with Alsace that used to play a sort of role of "sponge" between both cultures (more or less the role that play Belgium and The channel).


French main European borders:

Spain 623: Romance speaking nation
Belgium 620: Germanic-romance nation, borders mainly romance part
Suitzerland 573: Germanic-romance nation, border mainly romance part
Italy 488: Romance speaking nation
Germany 451: Germanic speaking nation
Luxemburg 73: Romance-germanic nation
Andorra 57: Romance-speaking nation
Monaco 6: romance speaking nation

8 countries: 4 romance countries (1174km), 1 germanic (451km), 3 romance-germanic countries (1266).

If we look in detail what languages border France:

French: 1030 km - Romance language
Spanish: 623 km - Romance language
German: 550 km - Germanic language
Italian: 488 km - Romance language
Catalan: 350km - Romance language
Flemish: 90 km - Germanic language

Well, claiming that France is "surrounded" by germanic nation sounds so ignorant of European and french geography!


But hearing this is no really surprising coming from people from the germanic nations of northern Europe:Dutch, English Germans or Scandinavians.
I observed a lot of time that a lot of them tend to have a vision of France that is much more "northerner" than in reality.

I noticed many of them (especially Germans) really surprised to learn that 70% of France is more at south than German southernmost point, or that france share more common latitudes with Italy (60%) than with Germany (30%), or that France southernmost point is almost in line with Bari in Puglia, southern Italy while its northermost point hardly hit central Germany level or the southernmost parts of Netherlands and UK.

This can explain
http://cjoint.com/data/ctvKtfaUMn.htm

In the previous map the red border were the ones with a germanic speaking area, the blue with romance-speaking ones.

I thin Tony would have better said that France was surrounded by romance-speaking nations; they are all around: Wallonia at north, Romandy (french speaking switzerland) and Italy at east, Spain at south west... borders with germanic languages only a tiny bit at north with Flanders and a larger one with Germany at north-east.

<<But hearing this is no really surprising coming from people from the germanic nations of northern Europe:Dutch, English Germans or Scandinavians.
>>

I'm saying things along the lines of what you oppose (i.e. deny), and I am not a germanic (as you would call it) person from a germanic nation listed above.

In fact, my family line (paternal side) hails from Wales, Scotland, Ireland and France in addition to England, and my surname is definitely Welsh hehe. My mother is from Asia. So I am not affected by your anti-germanic, "they-are-barbarians" mental[ly insane] propaganda. I am an outsider looking in objectively at you. Dude, you're GERMAN! Fess up or ShadAp.

<< Well, claiming that France is "surrounded" by germanic nation sounds so ignorant of European and french geography! ">>

No. French Belgium and French Switzerland are as much part of the French culture space as Austria is part of the German Kulturraum.
The borderline between French and Dutch/German is probably the longest language boundary in Europe, and the most open since it is devoid of any natural obstacle. Hence the many bilingual areas all along the line, including big centres like Brussels, Luxemburg, Strassburg, Fribourg CH etc.

On the other hand, the French space has no direct interface with the Spanish and Italian (except Corsica) areas. Firt of all it is isolated by the Southern French (Occitan) buffer zone.
Furthermore, the Pyrenees montains being an impassable barrier for most of their length, the only crossings leading to Spain are in Basque and Catalan territory.
Except for the coastal motorway near Nizza, the French-Italian border also consists of a huge barrier with the Alps. There are two or three tunnels with an overall capacity considerably lower than the Chunnel, and a few roads blocked by snow most of the year. BTW main rail link to Italy passes through German Switzerland (Simplon Tunnel).
When there an incident in one of those tunnels, there is no alternate solution, no ferries! Compared to the Alps of the Pyrenees, the English Channel is a wide open border.