If France was Gaulish, how come they became more Germanic than Gaulish? Assumed there were 5 millions of Gauls when the Franks arrived, how come the Franks increased in number until representing more han 5 millions in France?. Was Holland and Western Germany as populated as China or something at those times?.
Frankish language in France
" If France was Gaulish, how come they became more Germanic than Gaulish? Assumed there were 5 millions of Gauls when the Franks arrived, how come the Franks increased in number until representing more han 5 millions in France?. Was Holland and Western Germany as populated as China or something at those times?. "
The ansewer is obvious, they did not became more Germanic... The idea that franks were 5 millions is completly fantasist. Why would they?
An area with semi-nomadic people is almost never a very densily populated one.
First, France did not existed at that time. The territory that covers what we call now France was not "gaulish" but Roman when the germanic invader came into the empire. Gaulish and other previous people that lived there before (such as ligurians, Basques, greeks, etc) have been romanized for centuries at that time
The ansewer is obvious, they did not became more Germanic... The idea that franks were 5 millions is completly fantasist. Why would they?
An area with semi-nomadic people is almost never a very densily populated one.
First, France did not existed at that time. The territory that covers what we call now France was not "gaulish" but Roman when the germanic invader came into the empire. Gaulish and other previous people that lived there before (such as ligurians, Basques, greeks, etc) have been romanized for centuries at that time
<<The ansewer is obvious, they did not became more Germanic... The idea that franks were 5 millions is completly fantasist. Why would they?
An area with semi-nomadic people is almost never a very densily populated one. >>
You would need to prove to me that they were not 5 million strong. Otherwise you're making base less assumptions by stretching facts. If the Franks were clever enough to conquer gaul, they were clever enough to eke out a prosperous existence in Germania.
<<First, France did not existed at that time. The territory that covers what we call now France was not "gaulish" but Roman when the germanic invader came into the empire. Gaulish and other previous people that lived there before (such as ligurians, Basques, greeks, etc) have been romanized for centuries at that time >>
I wonder how many of the Italic Romans were withdrawn back to Rome to protect from the invaders. That certainly left Gaul wide open for invasion and made pickings eath. Gauls are not a very hardi leed are they!
An area with semi-nomadic people is almost never a very densily populated one. >>
You would need to prove to me that they were not 5 million strong. Otherwise you're making base less assumptions by stretching facts. If the Franks were clever enough to conquer gaul, they were clever enough to eke out a prosperous existence in Germania.
<<First, France did not existed at that time. The territory that covers what we call now France was not "gaulish" but Roman when the germanic invader came into the empire. Gaulish and other previous people that lived there before (such as ligurians, Basques, greeks, etc) have been romanized for centuries at that time >>
I wonder how many of the Italic Romans were withdrawn back to Rome to protect from the invaders. That certainly left Gaul wide open for invasion and made pickings eath. Gauls are not a very hardi leed are they!
Lobo Sat May 16, 2009 3:26 pm GMT
.....près de 90% des prénoms relevés du IXe siècle (en France) étaient d'origine germanique. On sait très bien que la population ne comptait pas ce pourcentage de Germains.......
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You say that 90% had Germanic names in the 9th century and tell us in the next sentence that the population itself was not Germanic? Isn´t it a contradiction in itself? How do you know that "the population itself was not Germanic"?
.....près de 90% des prénoms relevés du IXe siècle (en France) étaient d'origine germanique. On sait très bien que la population ne comptait pas ce pourcentage de Germains.......
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You say that 90% had Germanic names in the 9th century and tell us in the next sentence that the population itself was not Germanic? Isn´t it a contradiction in itself? How do you know that "the population itself was not Germanic"?
You say that 90% had Germanic names in the 9th century and tell us in the next sentence that the population itself was not Germanic? Isn´t it a contradiction in itself? How do you know that "the population itself was not Germanic"?
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I think he says people used a germanic name without being germane.
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I think he says people used a germanic name without being germane.
Ouest:''Lobo Sat May 16, 2009 3:26 pm GMT
.....près de 90% des prénoms relevés du IXe siècle (en France) étaient d'origine germanique. On sait très bien que la population ne comptait pas ce pourcentage de Germains.......
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You say that 90% had Germanic names in the 9th century and tell us in the next sentence that the population itself was not Germanic? Isn´t it a contradiction in itself? How do you know that "the population itself was not Germanic"? ''
Je n'ai vu aucune citation qui disait que les envahisseurs germaniques avaient à peu près complètement éliminés les occupants de la Gaule qui étaient en majeur partie d'origine gauloise, c'est-à-dire des celtes mêlés avec des autochtones. Le nucléaire n'existait pas encore! Les Germains se sont infiltrés parmi la population sur une période de plus de trois siècles, mais n'ont jamais été plus nombreux que ceux qui habitaient déjà le pays, autrement la France aurait été complètement germanisée, et parlerait uniquement une langue germanique ce qui n'est pas le cas. Elle n'a été que partiellement germanisée.
Les rois et leurs cours étaient probablement en grande partie des Francs, mais la population conquise du royaume l'était en moins grand nombre, et c'est particulièrement vrai dans certaines régions comme la Provence, l'Aquitaine et certaines provinces du centre où la présence germanique était quasiment nulle.
.....près de 90% des prénoms relevés du IXe siècle (en France) étaient d'origine germanique. On sait très bien que la population ne comptait pas ce pourcentage de Germains.......
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You say that 90% had Germanic names in the 9th century and tell us in the next sentence that the population itself was not Germanic? Isn´t it a contradiction in itself? How do you know that "the population itself was not Germanic"? ''
Je n'ai vu aucune citation qui disait que les envahisseurs germaniques avaient à peu près complètement éliminés les occupants de la Gaule qui étaient en majeur partie d'origine gauloise, c'est-à-dire des celtes mêlés avec des autochtones. Le nucléaire n'existait pas encore! Les Germains se sont infiltrés parmi la population sur une période de plus de trois siècles, mais n'ont jamais été plus nombreux que ceux qui habitaient déjà le pays, autrement la France aurait été complètement germanisée, et parlerait uniquement une langue germanique ce qui n'est pas le cas. Elle n'a été que partiellement germanisée.
Les rois et leurs cours étaient probablement en grande partie des Francs, mais la population conquise du royaume l'était en moins grand nombre, et c'est particulièrement vrai dans certaines régions comme la Provence, l'Aquitaine et certaines provinces du centre où la présence germanique était quasiment nulle.
Et les prénoms étaient empruntés du germaniques dans la plupart des cas, les habitants de la France s'identifiaient au prestige des Carolingiens à l'époque de Charlemagne.
<<I think he says people used a germanic name without being german[e]. >>
It takes more faith for me to believe they were non-germans using germanic names than it does for me to just believe they were german, or somegerman.
It takes more faith for me to believe they were non-germans using germanic names than it does for me to just believe they were german, or somegerman.
Lobo Fri May 22, 2009 8:46 pm GMT
Ouest:''Lobo Sat May 16, 2009 3:26 pm GMT
.....près de 90% des prénoms relevés du IXe siècle (en France) étaient d'origine germanique. On sait très bien que la population ne comptait pas ce pourcentage de Germains.......
_________________________________________
You say that 90% had Germanic names in the 9th century and tell us in the next sentence that the population itself was not Germanic? Isn´t it a contradiction in itself? How do you know that "the population itself was not Germanic"? ''
Lobo Fri May 22, 2009 8:46 pm GMT : Je n'ai vu aucune citation .......
Guest Fri May 22, 2009 9:57 pm GMT : It takes more faith for me to believe
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Are these your only arguments - lack of citations, more faith to believe? Please try harder to find some facts that support your thesis that, although the medieval lists that have come to us consisited of thousands of Germanic names, the namebearer were "Gaulois"!
Ouest:''Lobo Sat May 16, 2009 3:26 pm GMT
.....près de 90% des prénoms relevés du IXe siècle (en France) étaient d'origine germanique. On sait très bien que la population ne comptait pas ce pourcentage de Germains.......
_________________________________________
You say that 90% had Germanic names in the 9th century and tell us in the next sentence that the population itself was not Germanic? Isn´t it a contradiction in itself? How do you know that "the population itself was not Germanic"? ''
Lobo Fri May 22, 2009 8:46 pm GMT : Je n'ai vu aucune citation .......
Guest Fri May 22, 2009 9:57 pm GMT : It takes more faith for me to believe
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Are these your only arguments - lack of citations, more faith to believe? Please try harder to find some facts that support your thesis that, although the medieval lists that have come to us consisited of thousands of Germanic names, the namebearer were "Gaulois"!
" It takes more faith for me to believe they were non-germans using germanic names than it does for me to just believe they were german, or somegerman. "
Do you think that all the Spaniards and latin-Americans whose names are
Rodriguez, Lopez, Ramizer, Guiterrez, Gusman, Ramirez, Martinez, cervantes, torres, Mendez, Sanchez, Estrada, Hernandez, etc... which means the majority of today's spanish speakers) All descend from Gothic people?... Espacially when their surnames are Roberto, Enrique, Alberto, Alfonso, Alfredo, Alvaro, etc... ??
Do you think that all the Spaniards and latin-Americans whose names are
Rodriguez, Lopez, Ramizer, Guiterrez, Gusman, Ramirez, Martinez, cervantes, torres, Mendez, Sanchez, Estrada, Hernandez, etc... which means the majority of today's spanish speakers) All descend from Gothic people?... Espacially when their surnames are Roberto, Enrique, Alberto, Alfonso, Alfredo, Alvaro, etc... ??
" .....près de 90% des prénoms relevés du IXe siècle (en France) étaient d'origine germanique. On sait très bien que la population ne comptait pas ce pourcentage de Germains....... "
C'est fou comme internet déforme ce qui a été dit... Il y a queslque moi cette affirmation disait que dans certains cimetières de régions du nord de la France comme la Picarid ou la champagne on a pu trouver 90% de noms d'origine Germanique... ET maintenant c'est TOUTE la France qui a des noms germaniques...
Celà dit ça ne veut pas dire grand chose, si ce n'est que la France à été à un moment donné politiquement dominée par des germains. Les Indiens de Bolivie ou les "latinos" de Los Angeles qui s'appellent Alberto Rodriguez ou Alfonso Estrada seraitn donc d'origine Germanique?
C'est fou comme internet déforme ce qui a été dit... Il y a queslque moi cette affirmation disait que dans certains cimetières de régions du nord de la France comme la Picarid ou la champagne on a pu trouver 90% de noms d'origine Germanique... ET maintenant c'est TOUTE la France qui a des noms germaniques...
Celà dit ça ne veut pas dire grand chose, si ce n'est que la France à été à un moment donné politiquement dominée par des germains. Les Indiens de Bolivie ou les "latinos" de Los Angeles qui s'appellent Alberto Rodriguez ou Alfonso Estrada seraitn donc d'origine Germanique?
Lobo Fri May 22, 2009 8:46 pm GMT
Ouest:''Lobo Sat May 16, 2009 3:26 pm GMT
.....près de 90% des prénoms relevés du IXe siècle (en France) étaient d'origine germanique. On sait très bien que la population ne comptait pas ce pourcentage de Germains.......
_________________________________________
You say that 90% had Germanic names in the 9th century and tell us in the next sentence that the population itself was not Germanic? Isn´t it a contradiction in itself? How do you know that "the population itself was not Germanic"? ''
Lobo Fri May 22, 2009 8:46 pm GMT : Je n'ai vu aucune citation .......
Guest Fri May 22, 2009 9:57 pm GMT : It takes more faith for me to believe
_____________________________________________
Do you think that all the Spaniards and latin-Americans whose names are
Rodriguez, Lopez, Ramizer, Guiterrez, Gusman, Ramirez, Martinez, cervantes, torres, Mendez, Sanchez, Estrada, Hernandez, etc... which means the majority of today's spanish speakers) All descend from Gothic people?...
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What I think or not is not so important. What facts except your "faith", your "belief" and your "conviction" makes your statement credible? One hard fact is that the thousands of names in Northern France medieval name lists were Germanic. Naturally, one would assume that only Germanics and descendents of Germanics had Germanic names. Gaulois had names like Vercingetorix, Asterix or Obelix, Gallo-Romans had names like Quintilius, Sixtus, Remigius etc....
Ouest:''Lobo Sat May 16, 2009 3:26 pm GMT
.....près de 90% des prénoms relevés du IXe siècle (en France) étaient d'origine germanique. On sait très bien que la population ne comptait pas ce pourcentage de Germains.......
_________________________________________
You say that 90% had Germanic names in the 9th century and tell us in the next sentence that the population itself was not Germanic? Isn´t it a contradiction in itself? How do you know that "the population itself was not Germanic"? ''
Lobo Fri May 22, 2009 8:46 pm GMT : Je n'ai vu aucune citation .......
Guest Fri May 22, 2009 9:57 pm GMT : It takes more faith for me to believe
_____________________________________________
Do you think that all the Spaniards and latin-Americans whose names are
Rodriguez, Lopez, Ramizer, Guiterrez, Gusman, Ramirez, Martinez, cervantes, torres, Mendez, Sanchez, Estrada, Hernandez, etc... which means the majority of today's spanish speakers) All descend from Gothic people?...
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What I think or not is not so important. What facts except your "faith", your "belief" and your "conviction" makes your statement credible? One hard fact is that the thousands of names in Northern France medieval name lists were Germanic. Naturally, one would assume that only Germanics and descendents of Germanics had Germanic names. Gaulois had names like Vercingetorix, Asterix or Obelix, Gallo-Romans had names like Quintilius, Sixtus, Remigius etc....
who cares ? French are mixed race of frank, celt, roman and others europeans. They have germanic names, but that doesn't define their "origin".
Ouest : «Naturally, one would assume that only Germanics and descendents of Germanics had Germanic names. Gaulois had names like Vercingetorix, Asterix or Obelix, Gallo-Romans had names like Quintilius, Sixtus, Remigius etc.... »
Autre temps autre moeurs, mon cher Ouest. Penses-tu que les Romains n'étaient tous que des Romains. Mais non, il y avait des Étrusques, des Grecs, des Vénitiens, des Ligures, etc... Il faut être naïf ou je ne sais quoi pour croire ta théorie qu'il n'y a que les Germains qui peuvent porter des noms germaniques. Y avait-il une loi qui empêchait les Gallo-romains de porter des noms germaniques, si oui je n'en ai jamais entendu parler.
Les Gallo-romains empruntaient des noms germaniques et les Germains empruntaient une langue gallo-romaine. Voilà, c'est comme ça que les choses se passaient, dans un monde d'échange mutuel depuis la proto-histoire, le monde est ainsi Ouest, au fait Ouest pourquoi ce nom que tu t'es approprié?
Autre temps autre moeurs, mon cher Ouest. Penses-tu que les Romains n'étaient tous que des Romains. Mais non, il y avait des Étrusques, des Grecs, des Vénitiens, des Ligures, etc... Il faut être naïf ou je ne sais quoi pour croire ta théorie qu'il n'y a que les Germains qui peuvent porter des noms germaniques. Y avait-il une loi qui empêchait les Gallo-romains de porter des noms germaniques, si oui je n'en ai jamais entendu parler.
Les Gallo-romains empruntaient des noms germaniques et les Germains empruntaient une langue gallo-romaine. Voilà, c'est comme ça que les choses se passaient, dans un monde d'échange mutuel depuis la proto-histoire, le monde est ainsi Ouest, au fait Ouest pourquoi ce nom que tu t'es approprié?
" What I think or not is not so important."
Yes, it it important. I ask again the question: do you believe that the native indians of Central America or the andean mountains descend from Germanics because they wear spanish names of germanic origins?
" What facts except your "faith", your "belief" and your "conviction" makes your statement credible?"
This is precisely what differs between yourself and us. You are convinced of something and I am sure of nothing. What I point out is that a name doesn't always means an origin, and that we see multitudes of historical exemples that say the inverse.
" One hard fact is that the thousands of names in Northern France medieval name lists were Germanic. "
Well, do you sometimes relative of comparate what you claim?...
You speak of germanic names in MEDIEVAL lists in NORTHERN FRANCE as a indication of an heavy germanic identity of french people and language... (you could define a bit better what it is "northern france btw)...
Let's see 20 most common Spanish names in WHOLE MODERN SPAIN:
(including mediterranean part, Andalucia, etc.) in decreasing order
GARCIA (Basque), GONZALEZ(Germanic), FERNANDEZ(Germanic), RODRIGUEZ (Germanic), LOPEZ (?), MARTINEZ (Latin), SANCHEZ(Latin), PEREZ (Hebraic), MARTIN (Latin), GOMEZ (Germanic), JIMENEZ (Hebraic), RUIZ (French), HERNANDEZ (Germanic), DIAZ (Greek), MORENO (latin), ALVAREZ (Germanic), MUÑOZ (Latin), ROMERO (latin), ALONSO (Germanic), GUTIERREZ (Germanic)
well, 8 names are germanic, 6 are latin, 2 are hebraic, 1 basque, 1 french, 1 greek...
What do you conclude about Modern spanish-speaking peoples ?
" Naturally, one would assume that only Germanics and descendents of Germanics had Germanic names. Gaulois had names like Vercingetorix, Asterix or Obelix, Gallo-Romans had names like Quintilius, Sixtus, Remigius etc.... "
Are you joking? Or stupid ? Why do black Americans have English names then? Are they all descendants of the English people?
http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Michael-Jordan-R.jpg
Yes, it it important. I ask again the question: do you believe that the native indians of Central America or the andean mountains descend from Germanics because they wear spanish names of germanic origins?
" What facts except your "faith", your "belief" and your "conviction" makes your statement credible?"
This is precisely what differs between yourself and us. You are convinced of something and I am sure of nothing. What I point out is that a name doesn't always means an origin, and that we see multitudes of historical exemples that say the inverse.
" One hard fact is that the thousands of names in Northern France medieval name lists were Germanic. "
Well, do you sometimes relative of comparate what you claim?...
You speak of germanic names in MEDIEVAL lists in NORTHERN FRANCE as a indication of an heavy germanic identity of french people and language... (you could define a bit better what it is "northern france btw)...
Let's see 20 most common Spanish names in WHOLE MODERN SPAIN:
(including mediterranean part, Andalucia, etc.) in decreasing order
GARCIA (Basque), GONZALEZ(Germanic), FERNANDEZ(Germanic), RODRIGUEZ (Germanic), LOPEZ (?), MARTINEZ (Latin), SANCHEZ(Latin), PEREZ (Hebraic), MARTIN (Latin), GOMEZ (Germanic), JIMENEZ (Hebraic), RUIZ (French), HERNANDEZ (Germanic), DIAZ (Greek), MORENO (latin), ALVAREZ (Germanic), MUÑOZ (Latin), ROMERO (latin), ALONSO (Germanic), GUTIERREZ (Germanic)
well, 8 names are germanic, 6 are latin, 2 are hebraic, 1 basque, 1 french, 1 greek...
What do you conclude about Modern spanish-speaking peoples ?
" Naturally, one would assume that only Germanics and descendents of Germanics had Germanic names. Gaulois had names like Vercingetorix, Asterix or Obelix, Gallo-Romans had names like Quintilius, Sixtus, Remigius etc.... "
Are you joking? Or stupid ? Why do black Americans have English names then? Are they all descendants of the English people?
http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Michael-Jordan-R.jpg