which accent do you prefer British or American?

Terry   Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:46 pm GMT
<<I was interested because I heard an accent the other day that was Minnesotan but they were speaking so fast I could only understand a couple of words like 'thur' and 'yah'. Crazy.>>


Did you see the move, Fargo? Lots of Minnesota-type accents there. If not click the link below for a preview. It's funny.


http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=493387&trkid=189530

<< Very Germanic and Norse overtones obviously to their speech, but some of it reminded me of West Country/Janner English. Thoughts anyone? >>

There are a lot of Swedes out in Minnesota. That might be what you're hearing.

<<Sorry, don't mean to change the subject... >>

Don't worry, it happens quite frequently.

<<Just started reading this forum while doing a search on Minneosta accents, and I am fascinated by this site.>

Yes it fascinates me too and I usually don't like forums. BTW, welcome!
Graeme   Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:53 pm GMT
Thanks Terry. I have been hearing Minnesota accents my whole visit here (from California) and know the what you mean. But this accent was almost incomprehensible, and I'm usually good. At some points I thought they were speaking another language. Maybe they were, like Swenglish!
It was very unique to my ears, so just wondered if anyone knew of a rural Minnesotan accent that was unique like that.
I say West Country because his tone was very like the bumpkins I remember from my time in Devon and Cornwall.
Cheers!
Trawick   Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:14 pm GMT
The classic Minnesota dialect is a hybrid of the Early Modern English of the East Anglians (brought over by the puritans, and the foundation for most Northern US speech) with a heavy Germanic and occasionally Slavic influence.

The Minnesotan dialect is most notable for its "bode/bowed merger." This doesn't really make a lot of sense to most American and British speakers, since in both GenAm and RP, the two words are obviously pronounced the same. But in New England, and probably a number of other Northern states as well, closed syllables like the one in "bode" are pronounced with a pure [o] sound, while open syllables (i.e. "bowed") are dipthongized into [oU]. At least traditionally speaking.

In Minnesotan, however, bowed is pronounced with the pure [o] sound, which is partially why it may sound somewhat similar to West Country or Irish. This is probably related to the Germanic influence, as well as the frequent use of the word "Ja," obviously (although I'd guess this is really more common in more strong accents).
Lazar   Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:03 pm GMT
<<But in New England, and probably a number of other Northern states as well, closed syllables like the one in "bode" are pronounced with a pure [o] sound, while open syllables (i.e. "bowed") are dipthongized into [oU]. At least traditionally speaking.>>

That's interesting. I live in New England, and I pronounce "bode" and "bowed" exactly the same, with [oU]. In fact I've never heard of anyone in this region (or anyone outside of Britain, for that matter) maintaining distinctions like "bode-bowed". Do you have any sources to back this claim up?
Terry   Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:28 pm GMT
<<But in New England, and probably a number of other Northern states as well, closed syllables like the one in "bode" are pronounced with a pure [o] sound, while open syllables (i.e. "bowed") are dipthongized into [oU]. At least traditionally speaking.>>

I'm from Boston originally and that's the way I pronounce them.

<<That's interesting. I live in New England, and I pronounce "bode" and "bowed" exactly the same, with [oU]. In fact I've never heard of anyone in this region (or anyone outside of Britain, for that matter) maintaining distinctions like "bode-bowed". Do you have any sources to back this claim up? >>

Really Lazar, I don't think I know anyone from that area who doesn't make that distinction. Which part are you from? I was up there a couple of months ago but wasn't paying particular attention to the accents. Next time I talk to someone from there I'll ask them to say those words.:)
Graeme   Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:37 pm GMT
Is there a confusion here between "bowed down to the King" and "bowed in the middle" as in warped? Then they are said differently.
Lazar   Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:39 pm GMT
<<I'm from Boston originally and that's the way I pronounce them.>>

Hmm, I stand corrected then.

<<Really Lazar, I don't think I know anyone from that area who doesn't make that distinction. Which part are you from? I was up there a couple of months ago but wasn't paying particular attention to the accents. Next time I talk to someone from there I'll ask them to say those words.:)>>

I'm from a little suburb of Worcester. I by no means have the classic New England accent (e.g, I pronounce all my R's), but my speech does exhibit a lot of New England characteristics like the cot-caught merger and the father-bother distinction. I'll ask some people I know if they make the bode-bowed distinction, but honestly I'd never heard of anybody doing that here. You learn something new every day I guess. ;-)
Lazar   Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:42 pm GMT
Terry:

Just reading Graeme's post,

<<Is there a confusion here between "bowed down to the King" and "bowed in the middle" as in warped?>>

I need to make sure which "bowed" you're referring to. Because "bowed", as in "bowed to the king", I would obviously pronounce differently from "bode".
Travis   Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:52 pm GMT
>><<Is there a confusion here between "bowed down to the King" and "bowed in the middle" as in warped?>>

I need to make sure which "bowed" you're referring to. Because "bowed", as in "bowed to the king", I would obviously pronounce differently from "bode".<<

Of course, the "bowed" which is being referred to is the latter of the two. As for myself, I maintain a distinction between "bode" and "bowed" (as in bent) in only quite formal speech, and merge them as /bod/ -> [bo:d] or [bo:d_0] in all other speech.
Kirk   Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:06 am GMT
<<But in New England, and probably a number of other Northern states as well, closed syllables like the one in "bode" are pronounced with a pure [o] sound, while open syllables (i.e. "bowed") are dipthongized into [oU]. At least traditionally speaking. >>

Well both of those are closed syllables--I think what you mean was single-morpheme "bode" vs. bound morpheme "-ed" being added to "bow."

I have a monopthongal [o] in closed syllables (regardless of morphemes), but it's not cardinal [o] since it's unrounded and mid-centralized. In open position (such as "bow" it may be diphthongal or monophthongal). This phenomenon also applies to my [e]. This is common in Californian English.
Lazar   Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:17 am GMT
Yeah, I think Terry might have misread the X-SAMPA and interpreted [boUd] as [baUd].

So my question to Trawicks still stands, where did you learn of this phonemic [o]/[oU] distinction in New England? I'm not asserting that it doesn't exist, it's just that I've never heard of it before, and I certainly don't make such a distinction.
Terry   Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:17 am GMT
Just reading Graeme's post,

<<Is there a confusion here between "bowed down to the King" and "bowed in the middle" as in warped?>>

I need to make sure which "bowed" you're referring to. Because "bowed", as in "bowed to the king", I would obviously pronounce differently from "bode". >>

Yes that occurred to me too and that's why I popped back on. I was referring to the "bow" as in "bow down to the king."

Yes the bow in warped or also, what I thought of, the "bow" in "bow and arrow." In both cases I'm with you. A bit of confusion there but we ironed it out. We're still "good New Englanders" as Kirk might say.:)

Oh yes Worcester, I thought that was a good sized suburb, maybe not, just been through on the Mass Pike. I've heard people from Worcester who have very strong accents, (there was quite a funny one on "Click and Clack" once) and others who have no discernible accent at all, "CNN," I guess. I take it you fall into the latter category. Do you use the English "can't" or the American version?
Lazar   Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:18 am GMT
Sorry, that should be "Trawick" not "Trawicks" above. Must have been conflating him with Travis. ;-)
Terry   Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:19 am GMT
<<I by no means have the classic New England accent (e.g, I pronounce all my R's),>>

Pronounce all your R's? Shocking!
Lazar   Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:26 am GMT
<<Yes the bow in warped or also, what I thought of, the "bow" in "bow and arrow." In both cases I'm with you. A bit of confusion there but we ironed it out. We're still "good New Englanders" as Kirk might say.:)>>

Oh okay, I'm glad that we've cleared that up. ;-)

<<Oh yes Worcester, I thought that was a good sized suburb, maybe not, just been through on the Mass Pike. I've heard people from Worcester who have very strong accents, (there was quite a funny one on "Click and Clack" once) and others who have no discernible accent at all, "CNN," I guess. I take it you fall into the latter category.>>

Yeah, there is a mix around here. People from the city of Worcester itself (rather than from here in the suburbs) tend to have stronger regional accents. I don't have a really audibly distinct New England accent. Like you, though, I have the cot-caught merger but not the father-bother merger.

<<Do you use the English "can't" or the American version?>>

No, I just use the American version. I guess that makes me a bad New Englander then. :-(

But I do pronounce "aunt" as "ahnt" rather than "ant". ;-)

And not to seem like a spammer or anything, but just so that my question to Trawick isn't subsumed by other posts, let me just restate it again:

Where, Trawick, did you learn of this phonemic [o]/[oU] distinction in New England? I've never seen any attestation of such a distinction being made here.