Yeah, but that's just the Upper Midwest.
Anglosphere
"I don't see how those values are exclusively German.
I was simply saying that ones own ancestors usually have very little impact on ones culture. The culture of the country in which one lives seems to be a much stronger influence. Just because my great-grandfather was Bulgarian, doesn't mean that I am culturally Bulgarian."
I think we are probably both right, and both talking about slightly different things. You seem to be talking about the effects on an individual; I'm referring to more general traits, delicately laced into the zeitgeist of a populace of millions.
I for one believe that American culture has more German traits than British ones, but to be specific on this point, I would have to write an essay of several pages—an endeavor that would not be tolerated by the moderators.
I was simply saying that ones own ancestors usually have very little impact on ones culture. The culture of the country in which one lives seems to be a much stronger influence. Just because my great-grandfather was Bulgarian, doesn't mean that I am culturally Bulgarian."
I think we are probably both right, and both talking about slightly different things. You seem to be talking about the effects on an individual; I'm referring to more general traits, delicately laced into the zeitgeist of a populace of millions.
I for one believe that American culture has more German traits than British ones, but to be specific on this point, I would have to write an essay of several pages—an endeavor that would not be tolerated by the moderators.
I for one believe that America has more 17th and 18th century British traits than German ones.
↑ My contention is not based on attitudes on law enforcement as much as attitudes in everyday living.
I know we inherit our parlimentary system on the UK model, viz., trial by a jury, presumption of innocent until proven guilty, etc. But I believe our behavioral traits reflect more a German influence than a British one, with the possible exception of a tendency towards religious fanaticism (which derives from the Puritans).
At the risk of beating this topic to death, I submit that one thing that seems to prove my contention to a minor extent is the plight of British vs. German immigrants; in my observation, the Germans adapt far better than the Brits...
I know we inherit our parlimentary system on the UK model, viz., trial by a jury, presumption of innocent until proven guilty, etc. But I believe our behavioral traits reflect more a German influence than a British one, with the possible exception of a tendency towards religious fanaticism (which derives from the Puritans).
At the risk of beating this topic to death, I submit that one thing that seems to prove my contention to a minor extent is the plight of British vs. German immigrants; in my observation, the Germans adapt far better than the Brits...
I don't believe that Germans adapt more quickly than people from Britain. The British people that you have met must have been pretty strange...I think that the similarities you see are most likely just coincidences.
<<I for one believe that American culture has more German traits than British ones, but to be specific on this point, I would have to write an essay of several pages—an endeavor that would not be tolerated by the moderators. >>
Go ahead -- the moderators seem pretty lenient these days. You might have to split the essay up among several posts, if the software enforces a maximun post length.
Go ahead -- the moderators seem pretty lenient these days. You might have to split the essay up among several posts, if the software enforces a maximun post length.
The key factor here, though, is that American society as we know it today is not a mere transplantation of British society (whether English, Scottish, or Irish) to North America, as some would surmise, but rather reflects significant non-British European influences as a whole and is a fundamentally new society rather than simply being any preexisting society brought across the ocean. While the British certainly had their impact in the more easterly parts of the US, such seems to fade fast the further from the Atlantic one goes. And while at one time the US, especially amongst the elite, definitely seemed like British society transplanted, that period is long gone outside maybe New England and the coastal South. And conversely, the massive European immigration to areas like the Midwest has had its impact, especially as there has been similar large-scale emigration since then from there to much of the rest of the US, and particularly the West Coast (to the point that Californian society today is largely Midwestern society transplanted due to massive internal immigration following WW2).
>> The key factor here, though, is that American society as we know t today is not a mere transplantation of British society (whether English, Scottish, or Irish) to North America <<
Yes, but I hardly think that it is particularily German dominated. And the same could be said of Britain. Nowadays there are a lot of Germans and Poles living and working in Britain, so the modern day UK reflects significant non-British European influences.
Yes, but I hardly think that it is particularily German dominated. And the same could be said of Britain. Nowadays there are a lot of Germans and Poles living and working in Britain, so the modern day UK reflects significant non-British European influences.
The major thing is that such immigrants are merely new immigrants settling in a already-formed society in the UK, while such immigrants who settled here were major formative influences in the areas where they settled here, even back to the days before the American Revolution (in the case of places like Pennsylvania).
I think that the vast majority of British people would be very surprised indeed - probably totally gobsmacked to use British vernacular - if they were ever told of even the remotest traits of Britishicisms in American society. I don't think many of us would believe it anyway going by what we see in films and on TV and, of course, of the many American visitors to our shores. They really do appear to be "different" from us in many ways.
Disregarding the common Language* we generally believe that there are huge differences between our two societies - probably a cutural divide as wide as the Grand Canyon.
Jasper has mentioned several times the perceived difficulties/frustrations many British emigres to the United States experience in adapting to the American way of life once they have been over there for any length of time - more apparent, according to our respected friend Jasper, among the British than any other nationals who have settled over there. It must be related in some way to what I have just said.
*Actually the Language doesn't always seem to be all that common anyway, according to what those British emigres often whinge about on their Expat website.
Even ordering a glass of water in a restaurant can be something of a trial for some of our compatriots now living in America - and misunderstandings in telephone conversations are fairly regular occurrences or so our people over there maintain. One woman with a North of England accent said she just couldn't get a waitress to understand, after several attempts, that when she enquired about "fruit juice" - simply that - fruit juice, she didn't care what kind, be it orange or grapefruit or whatever - she did not specifically mean "prune juice" as that was what the waitress, poor wee thing, thought she was saying. Sometimes I feel quite embarrassed by some of my fellow countrymen's comments on that website - they can be so cruel and disrespectful! On their behalf I apologise to all Americans reading this.
To even things out I suggest the Americans take a peek at some of our less salubrious daytime TV chat shows - viz. Jeremy Kyle and Trisha Goddard! Yuk! But there again - let's be honest here - where did those kind of TV "shows" originate anyway? Jerry Springer......Ricky Lake........? Certainly not in the UK, even though Jerry Springer was born in a London tube station where his German mother had sought refuge during a WW2 air raid.
But here in the UK linguistic problems can also arise between people from different regions within the UK as well. Broad Glaswegian is not all that well understood in leafy Surrey tbh with you, nor is the speech of the South Wales Valleys in the Yorkshire Dales......just two examples. I've encountered some problems with my own (Edinburgh) Scottish accent here in London as well but not all that many, certainly not as many as I certainly would have if I spoke really broad Glaswegain instead of the much softer, somewhat more Anglicised Edinburgh which I will say as maybe I shouldn't many people down here find very appealing - and sexy too, according to some........ ;-)
Disregarding the common Language* we generally believe that there are huge differences between our two societies - probably a cutural divide as wide as the Grand Canyon.
Jasper has mentioned several times the perceived difficulties/frustrations many British emigres to the United States experience in adapting to the American way of life once they have been over there for any length of time - more apparent, according to our respected friend Jasper, among the British than any other nationals who have settled over there. It must be related in some way to what I have just said.
*Actually the Language doesn't always seem to be all that common anyway, according to what those British emigres often whinge about on their Expat website.
Even ordering a glass of water in a restaurant can be something of a trial for some of our compatriots now living in America - and misunderstandings in telephone conversations are fairly regular occurrences or so our people over there maintain. One woman with a North of England accent said she just couldn't get a waitress to understand, after several attempts, that when she enquired about "fruit juice" - simply that - fruit juice, she didn't care what kind, be it orange or grapefruit or whatever - she did not specifically mean "prune juice" as that was what the waitress, poor wee thing, thought she was saying. Sometimes I feel quite embarrassed by some of my fellow countrymen's comments on that website - they can be so cruel and disrespectful! On their behalf I apologise to all Americans reading this.
To even things out I suggest the Americans take a peek at some of our less salubrious daytime TV chat shows - viz. Jeremy Kyle and Trisha Goddard! Yuk! But there again - let's be honest here - where did those kind of TV "shows" originate anyway? Jerry Springer......Ricky Lake........? Certainly not in the UK, even though Jerry Springer was born in a London tube station where his German mother had sought refuge during a WW2 air raid.
But here in the UK linguistic problems can also arise between people from different regions within the UK as well. Broad Glaswegian is not all that well understood in leafy Surrey tbh with you, nor is the speech of the South Wales Valleys in the Yorkshire Dales......just two examples. I've encountered some problems with my own (Edinburgh) Scottish accent here in London as well but not all that many, certainly not as many as I certainly would have if I spoke really broad Glaswegain instead of the much softer, somewhat more Anglicised Edinburgh which I will say as maybe I shouldn't many people down here find very appealing - and sexy too, according to some........ ;-)
Damian, I think you are exaggerating. If British people can't adapt to life in America then that says more about the Brits themselves than it does about any differences/similarities between the two countries. Some British people are so demented that they can't even adapt to life in New Zealand, which is about as close to the UK as you can get. You can't believe anything someone like that says, in fact they would probably not even be able to adapt if they moved house in their own city in the UK.
Well, I don't know. I've lived in the US (23 years), Canada (9 years), and the UK (7 years). I've lived in the UK for 7 years, and had almost no cultural or linguistic problems. but I'll take your word for it, Damian, and Travis, that the UK and North America are completely, culturally different, since I assume that you guys have lived on both sides of the Atlantic for longer than I have, and have studied the reliable stories available on the internet detailing the vast cultural misunderstandings written by highly educated, intelligent people. Especially since the differences between the UK and North America are indeed "as wide as the Grand Canyon", to quote Damien. I guess was mistaken when I visited Germany, and felt like I was experiencing cultural shock, even though I am practically a native speaker of German, because my parents (both fluent in German) taught it to me since I was 3. Perhaps it's easier for Germans to come over here, than for us to go over there. Or maybe Berlin is the exception to the rule.
The UK and NZ are very, very different countries. NZ is a multi-cultural country with influences from all over the world, so it can no longer be said that it primarily British, so it's no wonder that Brits cannot adapt to it. Britain, on the other hand, has not changed at all in the last thousand years, except in the last 25 years. NZ is much more influenced by Portugal. Portuguese people have no trouble what-so-ever adapting to life in NZ. Come to think of it, they have no trouble adapting to life in the UK either.
"Jasper has mentioned several times the perceived difficulties/frustrations many British emigres to the United States experience in adapting to the American way of life once they have been over there for any length of time - more apparent, according to our respected friend Jasper, among the British than any other nationals who have settled over there. It must be related in some way to what I have just said. "
Thank you, Damian, for understanding. I must assert right away that my perceptions are based on what I see in both English and German immigrants whom I've met over a more-than 40 year period. (I think we all base our opinions on what we see.)
With this in mind, what strikes me the most is that although the UK is our mother country, English immigrants simply aren't happy here. I base this opinion on the utterances made by several of them that I've met over the years.
Now, Damian has said before that the UK in general is a cynical country, populated by people whose favorite pastime is whinging. Even given this caveat, the whinging I see in the English immigrants I've met surpasses that of almost every other country. While a certain amount of this is probably natural, I believe that whinging does reflect an underlying unhappiness on the part of the immigrants. People of course don't whinge when they're happy, so I'm left with the sentiment that the poor English just aren't happy over here. (Our correspondent Travis has confirmed in another thread the "whinge factor" of the Brits.)
By contrast, German immigrants I've met don't seem to complain hardly at all; in fact, oftentimes you have to drag it out of them. It's possible that whinging simply isn't the German way of doing things, but I think their presence here is a "better fit" than that of the Brits.
Another element to consider is the fact that possibly the US is the one place that Germans don't get beat over the head just for being German. Except in Jewish communities, of course, no one cares about the fact that you're German, and in fact might elicit some curiosity on the part of Americans, manifest by questions about German society, industry, customs, etc. (If you're living in the MidWest, being German is probably actually a "plus".)
By contrast, several Americans whom I've met who've lived in Europe have said that "Europe will never forgive Germany for what she did." This is something to think about, folks. Everybody has a basic need to feel wanted, or to at least not be hated for what they are.
And then there's the anti-Americanism issue. Sad to say, a lot of Englishmen, even after living here for years, aren't shy about uttering anti-American statements. This begs the question of "well, why on Earth are you still living here?", as well as being rather bruising to the ego of the listener.
By contrast, German immigrants can become quite verociously pro-American. I witnessed firsthand a German woman bellowing to an Asian woman,"If you don't like it here, why don't you go back?", in the stern voice only a German mother can muster. (The Asian woman became quiet immediately.)
Once again, this all leads me to believe that Germans are simply happier here than the English.
I've given you all three points to ponder. I could go on, but I believe that this will suffice for now.
NOTE: you will note that I have focused on the English. This is because I simply haven't met enough Scots or Irishmen to make an intelligent judgment.
Thank you, Damian, for understanding. I must assert right away that my perceptions are based on what I see in both English and German immigrants whom I've met over a more-than 40 year period. (I think we all base our opinions on what we see.)
With this in mind, what strikes me the most is that although the UK is our mother country, English immigrants simply aren't happy here. I base this opinion on the utterances made by several of them that I've met over the years.
Now, Damian has said before that the UK in general is a cynical country, populated by people whose favorite pastime is whinging. Even given this caveat, the whinging I see in the English immigrants I've met surpasses that of almost every other country. While a certain amount of this is probably natural, I believe that whinging does reflect an underlying unhappiness on the part of the immigrants. People of course don't whinge when they're happy, so I'm left with the sentiment that the poor English just aren't happy over here. (Our correspondent Travis has confirmed in another thread the "whinge factor" of the Brits.)
By contrast, German immigrants I've met don't seem to complain hardly at all; in fact, oftentimes you have to drag it out of them. It's possible that whinging simply isn't the German way of doing things, but I think their presence here is a "better fit" than that of the Brits.
Another element to consider is the fact that possibly the US is the one place that Germans don't get beat over the head just for being German. Except in Jewish communities, of course, no one cares about the fact that you're German, and in fact might elicit some curiosity on the part of Americans, manifest by questions about German society, industry, customs, etc. (If you're living in the MidWest, being German is probably actually a "plus".)
By contrast, several Americans whom I've met who've lived in Europe have said that "Europe will never forgive Germany for what she did." This is something to think about, folks. Everybody has a basic need to feel wanted, or to at least not be hated for what they are.
And then there's the anti-Americanism issue. Sad to say, a lot of Englishmen, even after living here for years, aren't shy about uttering anti-American statements. This begs the question of "well, why on Earth are you still living here?", as well as being rather bruising to the ego of the listener.
By contrast, German immigrants can become quite verociously pro-American. I witnessed firsthand a German woman bellowing to an Asian woman,"If you don't like it here, why don't you go back?", in the stern voice only a German mother can muster. (The Asian woman became quiet immediately.)
Once again, this all leads me to believe that Germans are simply happier here than the English.
I've given you all three points to ponder. I could go on, but I believe that this will suffice for now.
NOTE: you will note that I have focused on the English. This is because I simply haven't met enough Scots or Irishmen to make an intelligent judgment.
>> Even ordering a glass of water in a restaurant can be something of a trial for some of our compatriots now living in America <<
I know indeed. The water example has been an oft quoted example on the internet. Must be quite a problem. Best not to order water in America or Britain.
I know indeed. The water example has been an oft quoted example on the internet. Must be quite a problem. Best not to order water in America or Britain.