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10 defects of Chinese simplified characters
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Taiwan is a multilingual society like Singapore, not Hong Kong or China.
In this case, Taiwan has the need to make writing system more simpler.
In Taiwan,Mandarin,Hokkien,Hakka,Paiwan,A-mei etc (13 languages )are spoken, how about Hong Kong? Only Cantonese,Mandarin or English. Just 3 languages! So, we students here need to learn many languages, so the best way to require the knowledge of many languages is to make writing system more simpler. Taiwan is not in the past when only Mandarin should be spoken.<<
Simplification has nothing to do with multilingualism. The Chinese mainland has far more Chinese languages (my word for dialects which a lot of people call them in China) than your country, and so is it in Anglophone countries (English) where they actually have more dialects for the same language. And HK, btw, isn't as simple as you think. My family speak more than that. I personally also speak German thanks to my individual multilingualism. My family also speak exactly Hakka and Teochew. I should indeed have many very very very remote relatives - just look at my own name. I don't speak all these languages, but our origins are similar in some ways.
But still, simplification itself isn't justified by multilingualism. If so, a lot of things in real life would have to be simplified because of multilingualism. For example, if I aim at personal multilingualism, and you know, there are so many languages that aren't really written in Latin, then, by your logic, the Russians, Indians, our East Asian neighbors, they should all "simplify" their languages, use Latin letters, so that the languages are EASIER to learn. There are so many such reasons that "justify", by the slippery slope, the ultimate abolishment of the whole of Chinese characters. Wasn't it the original intention of the very guys who invented simplified characters, namely to abolish Hanzi ultimately? I don't personally buy the idea of simplifying for the sake of it or for some kind of convenience that...I don't see a point in.
Personally, when I see mainlanders writing the simplified, I'd say this is just their habit, a very habit that developed for 50 years or so in the mainland, including the majority of my family there. When I see foreigners doing this, I'd say 1) this is the very (bad) script they are used to, thanks to the convenience of learning the worse script out of 2 nowadays, such as in Chinesepod where everything is in simplified, and 2) they're simply settling for the worse AND also, as you say, the more convenient. They apparently don't quite understand it. Although the majority use the simplified, it doesn't follow that it must be the better one - the better one to write, the more logical one, and the beautiful one. All three criteria don't really stand.
And if you ask, by statistics, the minority of foreign learners, they might also concur that traditional Chinese, while less used by the Chinese themselves by statistics too, makes more sense and is actually easier to learn in the long run. I've already pointed out some of the more logical arrangements in traditional Chinese. You can find the same arguments elsewhere.
正确做法（个人拙见）：基本上恢复繁体字（同时要优化特繁字），保留合理的、可以类推的简化字（剔除不合理的部分），系统化地将汉字重新洗牌（一劳永逸、避免将来再折腾）。
另外，没必要给俗/异体字太宽松的环境（不要总翻案重审），一旦确定好新正体字方案（包括：原有合理的繁体字、优化后的新繁体字、被保留的简化字部分、以及纳入正体中的俗/异体字），最好禁止出版物、输入法、各媒体，使用新正体字之外的“非规范字”（俗/异/别/等多种写法）。如果不这样做，永远不能结束繁简之争，繁简双文仍将长期共存（资源浪费）。当然，这个新方案要有水平，绝不能太菜鸟或无厘头。
搞新规范字（新正体字）应该覆盖所有的汉字，而不是只针对常用的两三千字，如果好多字都游离于新方案之外，实际上等于只改动了一小半，而那一大半汉字却未能被优化。尤其古籍书是用百分之百的繁体字？还是用简化字？或是用新规范（有繁、有简、还有类推和优化的部分）？最好给出个具体数字，例如：除死字和废字之外，汉字共有几万几千几百几十几个？（其余一律立法废掉）。一级常用有多少字？二级、三级？古籍常用字？古籍生僻字？最不常用但不能废掉的？要想结束文字上的“五代十国”现象，最大限度避免资源浪费、无效内耗，最好的办法就是“独裁”（但要以理服人），既然挺简派和拥繁派打得不可开交，那就各退一步、海阔天空吧。最好是由两岸共同搞出最佳方案，如果台湾不配合，可以找日韩两国（越南就算了），无论如何，总比奋斗八年才搞出44个字要好得多。多余的话我也不想说了。
如果不立法，也不采取「釜底抽薪」的办法，「茴字有四种写法」的故事还会继续下去。举个例子：有人写「里」（简化）、也有人写「裡」，还有人写「裏」，不如将「裡」作为规范字，另两种就不要沿用了。最简单的方法，是从印刷出版物、社会媒体、以及电脑输入法（字库）开始入手。这个办法是有点霸道独裁，但俗话说「长痛不如短痛」，当年如果没有秦始皇的「书同文」，中国的汉字不一定会有多少种写法呢。
如有不妥之处，敬请各位指正。
可否与日、韩、台（两国一地）坐下来共同商讨汉字统一大业，若真能如愿以偿，或将促成汉字「印刷字体」及电脑「编码系统」实现东亚大统一。此举可谓功德无量。汉字不统一当然有弊端，既有简化字、也有传统字，写简识繁耗费双重心力，同时必然造成资源浪费。倒不如制定统一汉字。外国人学中文，不必再学简识繁，中国人学日语，不必再关注差异。届时，全球人只要提到汉字就无须再问：哪种汉字？台湾传统字、香港传统字、大陆简化字、大陆新规范字？和制汉字？韩制汉字？对于外国人来讲，在大陆或在台湾学中文都是一样的，学好中文还能促进日语或韩语，反之亦然。对于我们来说，在电脑中不必再分出这种编码、那种编码、这个字形好看，那个字形难看，等各类繁琐细节。至于你说英语未能统一，汉字和拼音文不同，英美人用词和发音有些不同，自然不能统一，而汉字不论你讲哪种南腔北调，字的写法始终还是那个字，明白这一点，你就会想通。不论日文汉字用途是什么，它毕竟属于汉字范畴，你不能说它是拉丁字、西里尔字、或阿拉伯字吧。它的定位我们不管，但在下深知，在文字上一统天下，总好过汉字活在春秋战国、藩镇割据的混乱时代。
简体字将几千年来原本语意精确的汉字当成了音节符号胡乱合并，直接导至现今网络大量的不规范方言口语文，他们直接使用同音或近音汉字书写口语。严重破坏汉字这个严谨的体系。简体字的合并思维，导至一大批追求拼音化的民科们诞生，他们以废除汉字为终身不变的目标。最严重者，简体字造就一大批无反思意识、狭隘、无民族整体意识、唯政治论、仇视汉文古籍、仇视繁体字者。以全民公投来征求意见、定夺方案，根本行不通 (无赖、文盲、懒汉太多)。当年“地心说”曾是代表欧洲人（尤其天主教会）世界观的“正统理论”，那时如果有谁赞成“日心说”，后果将不堪设想。如今在中国，简繁之争再次上演了“地心说" (当前简化字)对"日心说" (以正体字为基础，对汉字系统加以优化)谩骂侮辱的激烈场景。既然「殺＝杀」，为何「没≠シ」？「类推无厘头」现象举不胜举。这才是关键点！
>>正确做法（个人拙见）：基本上恢复繁体字（同时要优化特繁字），保留合理的、可以类推的简化字（剔除不合理的部分），系统化地将汉字重新洗牌（一劳永逸、避免将来再折腾）。<<
This point is similar to my argument. But in general, my personal taste can only extend to as far as the Japanese Kanji. In other words, Kanji does contain quite a few characters that we could call simplified, compared to their counterparts in traditional Chinese. Those would be almost all that I could accept. Most others in the first list (see above) sound and look illogical to me. In my opinion, then simplified Chinese (the 1986 version) would have to be almost completely reverted.
It's also good to say that, in fact, much of simplified Chinese is better reserved for calligraphy, like my own name. They look ugly and unnecessary when you straighten them to form square characters. Just leave them in the cursive. "Simplifying", other than the ultimate aim of abolishing Hanzi, also aims at (almost pure) "reductionism" at large. But in many instances, I don't even see just how simple simplified characters have become. All in all, according to your proposal, the whole thing really has to be completely overhauled.
＜＜Severine Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:25 pm GMT
發但是絕影響力 ＞＞
OMG! OMG! You did it again!!! You randomly chose some characters and constructed a sentence. And guess what?! It actually makes sense! This time it means "A Spanish bitch just pissed on my hotdog". Wow! How did you do it?! You're so talented!
"Xie Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:42 am GMT
Simplification has nothing to do with multilingualism. The Chinese mainland has far more Chinese languages (my word for dialects which a lot of people call them in China) than your country, and so is it in Anglophone countries (English) where they actually have more dialects for the same language. And HK, btw, isn't as simple as you think. My family speak more than that. I personally also speak German thanks to my individual multilingualism. My family also speak exactly Hakka and Teochew. I should indeed have many very very very remote relatives - just look at my own name. I don't speak all these languages, but our origins are similar in some ways.
But still, simplification itself isn't justified by multilingualism. If so, a lot of things in real life would have to be simplified because of multilingualism. For example, if I aim at personal multilingualism, and you know, there are so many languages that aren't really written in Latin, then, by your logic, the Russians, Indians, our East Asian neighbors, they should all "simplify" their languages, use Latin letters, so that the languages are EASIER to learn. There are so many such reasons that "justify", by the slippery slope, the ultimate abolishment of the whole of Chinese characters. Wasn't it the original intention of the very guys who invented simplified characters, namely to abolish Hanzi ultimately? I don't personally buy the idea of simplifying for the sake of it or for some kind of convenience that...I don't see a point in.
Personally, when I see mainlanders writing the simplified, I'd say this is just their habit, a very habit that developed for 50 years or so in the mainland, including the majority of my family there. When I see foreigners doing this, I'd say 1) this is the very (bad) script they are used to, thanks to the convenience of learning the worse script out of 2 nowadays, such as in Chinesepod where everything is in simplified, and 2) they're simply settling for the worse AND also, as you say, the more convenient. They apparently don't quite understand it. Although the majority use the simplified, it doesn't follow that it must be the better one - the better one to write, the more logical one, and the beautiful one. All three criteria don't really stand.
And if you ask, by statistics, the minority of foreign learners, they might also concur that traditional Chinese, while less used by the Chinese themselves by statistics too, makes more sense and is actually easier to learn in the long run. I've already pointed out some of the more logical arrangements in traditional Chinese. You can find the same arguments elsewhere. "
Individual multilingualism is not included. I mean "social multilingualism". Just check HK,Taiwan and China's language laws.
In HK's Basic Law, only Chinese (Cantonese,Mandarin) and English are official.
In China,only Mandarin is official.
In Taiwan, according to "Legal Language Provisions", there are 13 official languages.
So, I can say Taiwan is more multilingual than China and HK.Simplification is our goal just like Singaporeans' goal to make Chinese writing more simpler. Besides, Russia , India even east asian countries are much bigger than both Taiwan and Singapore by territory. They don't need to communicate with foreigners so much, but Taiwan and Singapore has to. So, people in both Taiwan and Singapore should have much time in learning only "complicated characters" - They need to learn simpler thing to do business with foreigners. So, simplification is essential for both Taiwan and Singapore!
>>Individual multilingualism is not included. I mean "social multilingualism". Just check HK,Taiwan and China's language laws.
In HK's Basic Law, only Chinese (Cantonese,Mandarin) and English are official.
In China,only Mandarin is official.
In Taiwan, according to "Legal Language Provisions", there are 13 official languages. <<
You can't mix up social and legal aspects. Go to the markets, elderly homes, public housing areas, etc, and you can still hear some unintelligible languages. They include Hakka (which only my grandparents understand), Teochew (except my generation in the family), some Minnan stuff, and some Hindi and Urdu, etc. New immigrants, South Indian residents and immigrants, they all speak something like or different from mine.
>>
So, I can say Taiwan is more multilingual than China and HK.Simplification is our goal just like Singaporeans' goal to make Chinese writing more simpler.<<
What a huge generalization. And you're even saying China is LESS multilingual than Taiwan with officially recognized some fifty something ethnic groups? Does anyone speak Uighur and Tibetan and Mongolian and Manchu in Taiwan? What about Korean in the northeast and Japanese among Japanese expats? And Russian and Kazakh?
>>Besides, Russia , India even east asian countries are much bigger than both Taiwan and Singapore by territory. They don't need to communicate with foreigners so much, but Taiwan and Singapore has to.<<
The fact is, while Russia is officially monolingual, they have just as many ethnic groups as the PRC has. The fact is, India is one of the few countries that has more than ten official languages - and all are working languages unlike "local" languages in the case of Taiwan and some other places where there are just 1 to 4 languages, etc, having equally high status. National and local languages are two different concepts.
>>So, people in both Taiwan and Singapore should have much time in learning only "complicated characters" - They need to learn simpler thing to do business with foreigners. So, simplification is essential for both Taiwan and Singapore!<<
I don't even know why foreign trade is THAT imperative. In Hong Kong, everybody writes traditional Chinese, most of us support it, and we're doing perfectly fine with foreigners. In terms of percentage, Hong Kong has far more foreign trade than Taiwan, though I'm not sure about total volume. Should be quite close, in fact.
I don't see the point why native speakers should simplify their language, just to save time in learning their own language, and THEN JUST TO DO BUSINESS WITH FOREIGNERS? I gather that, unlike Singapore, Taiwan should be able to survive independently. You don't need China, don't you? Hong Kong is more dependent on foreign trade and we're still doing fine.
If the reason above is that valid, I'm yet to know why China, which even survived its own isolation against the USSR and the US during the Cold War, did simplify Chinese. By common sense, it was the first country that did so, followed by Singapore.
Taiwan's languages:
I recognize that Taiwan, despite historical repression, actually speaks Mandarin and Minnan and Hakka and then loads of aboriginal languages. But just as how you discount Teochew and Hakka in Hong Kong, at least the aboriginal languages are quite in the minority, just like Teochew and Hakka in Hong Kong, and even Indonesian and Tagalog.
It's unfortunate that I have no reliable information at hand, but I gather that at least the aboriginal are too trivial to speak of in terms of official status. It may be generous of the ROC government to recognize them as local languages and even grant them some sort of protective status, but at the administrative level, probably they aren't even there.
In Taiwan, it's a known phenomenon, though not probably the truth, that the great majority speak anything Chinese, i.e. Mandarin and Minnan and Hakka, etc. And in fact, even with official status, you can only be sure that 5% of the Hong Kong population speak English natively or on a daily basis or at work. Almost everybody else are monolingual in real life. I don't see a great difference in the 2 places. 3 languages vs 3 languages? One dominant language vs another dominant language? That looks even like the same to me.
Xie Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:49 am GMT
>>You can't mix up social and legal aspects. Go to the markets, elderly homes, public housing areas, etc, and you can still hear some unintelligible languages. They include Hakka (which only my grandparents understand), Teochew (except my generation in the family), some Minnan stuff, and some Hindi and Urdu, etc. New immigrants, South Indian residents and immigrants, they all speak something like or different from mine. <<
If you wanna include personal aspects, then Japanese is included in Taiwan because most elders speak Japanese. Btw, Japanese characters face simplification. Surely it has no difficulty that Taiwan's Chinese characters adopt simplification because the elder speak Japanese.
>>What a huge generalization. And you're even saying China is LESS multilingual than Taiwan with officially recognized some fifty something ethnic groups? Does anyone speak Uighur and Tibetan and Mongolian and Manchu in Taiwan? What about Korean in the northeast and Japanese among Japanese expats? And Russian and Kazakh? <<
In China's "國家通用語言文字法", Mandarin is official.
>>The fact is, while Russia is officially monolingual, they have just as many ethnic groups as the PRC has. The fact is, India is one of the few countries that has more than ten official languages - and all are working languages unlike "local" languages in the case of Taiwan and some other places where there are just 1 to 4 languages, etc, having equally high status. National and local languages are two different concepts. <<
Please read Taiwan's "Legal Language Provision Act" that they are not local languages, but "official languages"
>>I don't even know why foreign trade is THAT imperative. In Hong Kong, everybody writes traditional Chinese, most of us support it, and we're doing perfectly fine with foreigners. In terms of percentage, Hong Kong has far more foreign trade than Taiwan, though I'm not sure about total volume. Should be quite close, in fact.
I don't see the point why native speakers should simplify their language, just to save time in learning their own language, and THEN JUST TO DO BUSINESS WITH FOREIGNERS? I gather that, unlike Singapore, Taiwan should be able to survive independently. You don't need China, don't you? Hong Kong is more dependent on foreign trade and we're still doing fine.
If the reason above is that valid, I'm yet to know why China, which even survived its own isolation against the USSR and the US during the Cold War, did simplify Chinese. By common sense, it was the first country that did so, followed by Singapore. <<
In "manufacture", Taiwan is better than Hong Kong. In trade with China, Taiwan is getting better than Hong Kong because of " three direct transports". No Taiwanese people don't see Hong Kong as an important trade harbor because of it is getting poorer than poorer.
Doing simplification is just for "learning faster, and then you can learn more things". Just like Japan and Singapore did in simplification.
Swedish Girl Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:13 am GMT
Take China's history. No dynasties are brave to simplify Chinese characters (except Taiping Tianguo). So, we should be clapping hands to CCP.
The dynasties of China don't brainwashing the "popular peoples". Only the Taiping Tianguo would be brainwashing the popular peoples. So, who simplify the Chinese characters to let the most of popular peoples received the propaganda.
"Northern Chinese Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:23 am GMT
简体字将几千年来原本语意精确的汉字当成了音节符号胡乱合并，直接导至现今网络大量的不规范方言口语文，他们直接使用同音或近音汉字书写口语。严重破坏汉字这个严谨的体系。"
The Chinese character (汉字), Classical Chinese (古文), Written Mandarin (规范现代汉语) and dialects' written language (方言口语文) are different matters.
The Written Mandarin adopts the Logo Writing System (表意文字). The dialects' written language adopt the Syllabic Writing System (音节文字), so which use the homograph (同音字, 近音字) in the writings. The Chinese character are the public property, every people in the world have the right to use it with their mind.
Unless the Classical Chinese and Written Mandarin, any kinds of the so-called Chinese dialects (方言) have the right to design, develope and promote their dialects' written language (方言口语文).
>> Xie Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:49 am GMT
What a huge generalization. And you're even saying China is LESS multilingual than Taiwan with officially recognized some fifty something ethnic groups?
Does anyone speak Uighur and Tibetan and Mongolian and Manchu in Taiwan? <<
>> Tai-oan-lang Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:03 am GMT
In China's "國家通用語言文字法", Mandarin is official. <<
The students of these fifty ethnic groups must learn the Spoken and Written Mandarin in schools and their native languages are only teach in the first three years of primary school.
The Written Tibetan and Written Mongolian are rest for the monks to chant in temples. The modern knowledges are less to absorb by those written forms.
The Manchurian people are more than five millions, who speak and write in Mandarin. There only about two thousands of Manchurian people can speak the native language, and the Written Manchu is a died written language, only a very small group of scholars can read it.
> Tionghoa Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:19 am GMT
> Re：我當然知道，但它是個偽系統，
Tionghoa, hear your viewpoints about "偽系統".
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