Is there a gay accent in English?

Wintereis, can I ask you a few personal questions?
If yes, then please answer these: what kind of education have you had, and what is your current profession?
I find you an intelligent person that frequently makes insightful contributions, and I want to learn more about you (within the realms of internet anonymity, of course).

"Pre-Columbian native Americans perceived homosexuals, "two spirited people", as holy." by WINTEREIS

"A bizarre mixture of mumbo-jumbo and patronising special pleading." by GUEST

Guest, Wintereis is correct, but not specific enough.

In the Navajo culture, historically and even today, male homosexuals are called "two-spirits" because they are believed to be directly blessed, by the Great Spirit, with the essences of both women and men. It was considered a blessing of the highest order. These "chosen few" were selected by the tribes to be Medicine Men.

Guest, I think it a direct barrier to learning to allow personal prejudices to blind one to the truth.

SHORT MEMORY: "Women, who previously in the West .... Can you imagine a society where the feet of women were bound so tightly that they couldn't breathe (ie corsets)?"

Short Memory, you very slyly evaded the point. Instead of looking inward at China to examine my point for veracity, you "turned it around" like a little kid.

I'm going to toss the ball back to you:

Tell me now—in which society are women more liberated? In China, or in the West? Please be honest.

What you said is true, but as Chinese women had their feet bound, so did Western women have their waists bound. There is little difference.
Chinese women can look after themselves, and don't need some Western women preaching to them.

Chinese women 40 years ago were miserable. Now they are only a little behind Western women. 40 years ago, Western women were less liberated, but have made less progress in that time. So Chinese have made more progress in the last 40 years, and are only behind since they started from a lower level. So you should look and learn!


<<Tell me now—in which society are women more liberated? In China, or in the West? Please be honest. >>


In the West, indeed. But not by so much as you think. In Chinese rural areas, yes it is probably very bad. But the cities are modern and progressive. I'd say Chinese women are ahead of Indian or Latin American women.


By the way, I as a lover of the universal rights of socialism, must urge you to support Obama's plan for healthcare! It is so horrible to see people who can't afford to pay for their health! You need to learn the socialst ways immediately! Healthcare for all is a UNIVERSAL human right! Go support him now!

So, how do you like it when you're lectured?

Tell me now—in which society is healthcare more better? In Cuba, or in the USA? Please be honest.

Shortmemory:

But if you recall, my original statement was "Yet society in China itself is changing. Women .... are beginning to flex their muscles; divorces are becoming more and more common. " You do remember that, don't you?

Don't you realize that we're actually agreeing on the main point?

Sometimes people argue on the little point, while not realizing the fact that they're agreeing on the big one.

<<In the West, indeed. But not by so much as you think. In Chinese rural areas, yes it is probably very bad. But the cities are modern and progressive. I'd say Chinese women are ahead of Indian or Latin American women. >>

I doubt it, in some Latin American countries women usually are the head of familiy (even in Spain this is not rare), for example those where indigenous cultures still have strong impact: Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay. And on the othere hand Argentina, Chile or Uruguay are light-years ahead of China in terms of women's rights. Presidents of Chile and Argentina are women both. Hispanic American countries are the only ones I know where women don't adopt their husband's surname.

@ Jasper:

<prejudices>

You missed the point. Not everyone wants to be positioned within the context of random anthropological bric-à-brac.

Lo Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:55 pm GMT
To these people, xenophobia, racism, homophobia aren't compatible with democracy, and we all love and treasure this beautiful lifestyle (because it's not just a government system, it's a lifestyle). If you're looking to discriminate against some particular group, I'm quite sure you'll find on the Internet a forum that hates that group, because terribly there are still people like you out there. You might consider join a racist political party. There are plenty of options for you. But a forum about the English language and linguistics IS NOT THE PLACE FOR YOU TO SHOW OFF YOUR HATRED. Being that said, thank you.
To the others, the educated and cultured people that roam this forum, thank you for sharing your knowledge as a hobby, as it enriches us all.
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LO, calm down, calm down!
You seem to me like an angry Thought Police weaving PC clubs at us all, trying to silence all discussions on any agenda you dislike here on this forum by accusing us as haters of all the most evil and demoniac sort!

You are terriblely wrong on many things!
First, in this particular thread about gay accent in English, what do you suggest we should discuss according to yr PC agenda? Isn't this every bit a valid topic in ENglish and language?

Second, this topic is an interestingly interdisciplinary one, naturally involving comments about a wide range of things that are not purely linguistic! It is only understandble that posters express their feelings and points of views by drawing resources from other fields of life!

Third, even according to yr narrow mind, would the world be a better place by getting all these sort of people you dislike to other corners of the Internet? If you think you have truths at hands, why not avail yrself of the opportunity the forum provides to educate and convince us all with all yr nice truths? Language is power! Don't underestimate it!

Plz don't attemt being a high moral ground claimer before you can verifibably show a clean record of yours!I must say most of the guys that roam this forum are educated and cultured people!

>>Wintereis Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:42 am GMT
Oh, good heavens. I leave you people alone for a few days and all kinds of silliness and stupidity breaks out like its some kind of social disease. <<

OOOOOOoh, Wintereis, thank you for yr detailded, infromative reply in this both hilarious,heuristic topic (I never expected you to come up with such an informative reply)! I feel a need to respond to yr comments point by point to either agree with you or counter-argue with you somewhere!

>>Shumio, as usual, your ignorance of the world at large leaves me positively astonished (and we Americans get the bad rap)-- you would think I would have gotten used to it by now. There are many cultures and religions that not only accept homosexuality but, in certain instances, they promote it. Many of the Shamanic religions of the world consider the "homosexual" sacred and some even include homosexual acts as a rite of passage into adult hood. <<

Hmmmmmmmm, sounds very interesting! I am eager to learn more!
Regarding yr accusation of me as ignorant, I am afraid you are FAR from being a qualifed figure to make such judgement!Perhaps the opposite might hold truer!LOL! Of course on certain particular issues, you, or any other poster, might know more than Shuimo do!But the same thing can be said of Shuimo as well!


>>>Pre-Columbian native Americans perceived homosexuals, "two spirited people", as holy. They were thought to have an ability to move between worlds. This same thing can be said about the pre-Abrahamic religions of Europe. For instance, prior to his return from the underworld, the mythic poet, Orpheus, was strictly "heterosexual". After returning from the world of the dead, he was "homosexual". <<<

Interesting!But why just pre-Columbian native Americans?
What about the post-Columbian native Americans?
Did they die out gradually due to the non-producing homosexuality or some other mysterious reason?


>>In Egypt, Hermes Trismegistus was born from the "homosexual" relationship between the two sun gods, Horace and Thoth. Hermes Trismegistus was said to have gone on to write the emerald tablet (foundations of Alchemy and Kabala). <<

Well, legendary stories always hold appeal!
I wonder how someone cud be born out of a homosexual relationship, I mean, scientifically speaking?

>>In Papua New Guinea an ancient tribe, The Big Namba, cling to the belief that sperm is sacred, powerful, and limited in its abundance. It is therefore necessary for the warriors of the tribes to inseminate the youths so that they may pass into manhood. <<

Again interesting!

>>In the Christian bible as well as the Talmud the characterization of the relationship between David and David is often seen as homoerotic as well as the "wrestling of Jacob with the angel. You can see the eroticization of these figures in many artistic renderings.
Donatello's David (See how the swan wing on Goliath's helmet curves up David's thigh): http://www.wga.hu/art/d/donatell/1_early/david/2david_2.jpg
Jacob and the Angel:
http://www.i-youniverse.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/leloir_-_jacob_wrestling_with_the_angel.jpg <<

Well, for Christianity, AFAIK, even the Pope is against homosexuality! I think that says it all regarding the attitude of Christianity towards homosexuality!

>>Why, Shumio, there is even a famous story of "the cut sleeve" in your own culture. The story goes that a Chinese emperor woke early and, upon seeing his male lover's beautiful body draped over his own silk sleeve (a mark of his status and power), preferred to cut off that sleeve than wake his lover. <<

Hhahhah,Shuimo take my hat off to you for this mention of the noted "cut sleeve" homosexual story in Chines history! Today the Chinese wud still use a "cut sleeve" relationship to indirectly describe a homosexual relationship btw two males!

>>In the dialogs of Plato you will also find that the philosopher credits a pair of male lovers with founding the first know "democracy" (the Athenian Republic on which both the Roman and American Republics were later based). There names were Harmodius and Aristogeiton. a famous statue of the pair was set before the acropolis, I believe (don't quote me), that Xerxes took the statues during his conquest. History has it that Alexander the Great of Macedonia, who preferred men, retrieved the statues and returned them to Athens.
Statues of Harmodius and Aristogaiton: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Harmodius_and_Aristogeiton.jpg/250px-Harmodius_and_Aristogeiton.jpg <<

Hmmm, I think so! Don't we use Plato love for homosexual love?
Should Shuimo say that Plato has set a very brilliant or bad example for the rest of Western philosophers and artists? I hear that many good famed ones are homosexuals, aren't they? I don't know whehter Plato should be personally responsible for that?

>>Now, for another matter. Someone was claiming that homophobia seemed as natural if not more so than homosexuality. As a "homosexual", I cannot agree with this person more. It has long been known that difference and ignorance are the greatest catalysts of fear. So, it is quite natural that people who are unfamiliar with homosexuals and largely ignorant of human sexuality, aside from the grunting act itself, should fear it.<<

Agree with you here!
All fears in a fundamental way result from our ignorance or being kept in the dark about certain things we should be supposed to know!
We are afraid of catching certain diseases because we know these diseaseas are still incurable because scienttists haven't found out the right ways to conquer such them, like the AIDS and some cancers!
We often feel an uneasiness about the future when we make important decisions that can significantly impact our lives, because we don't know what the exact consequences wud be!


>>As for the "natural" state of homosexuality . . . well, it is as natural as heterosexuality, which is saying very little indeed. As shown both by contemporary philosophy as well as well as science itself, no binary or category is true in essence (look at taxonomy). Our languages and our own minds find it easier to stick a label on something whether that label accurately describes that object or not. This is basic linguistics. Often times we become so attached to these labels that we forget that they are arbitrary, that in reality the world is made up of continuums rather than categories. <<

I surely cann't agee with you here wholly!
Post-modern thoughts, while having its own merits in shaking off some deep-seated thinking chains and shackles, have its demerits as well for its radical refusal and rejections of all good stuff left from its predecessors!

You mentioned taxonomy and claim that the world is made up of continuums rather than categories. Do you seriously believe that? This is absolutely the biggest sham post-modernists trying to sell to and drug us by misleadning us to belive that the objective world cud be manipulated like toy as we wish and whim!

Is there a continuum along which a male is gradually (or suddenly?) changed into a female or vice versa, unless you are talking about transexuals? The divding line btw a male and a female is surely not fuzy in biological terms, though I agree you can always toy with "gender" as much as you like, but definitely not with SEX!

>>The best contemporary science shows that there is no gene for heterosexuality . . . and there is no gene for homosexuality. That is not to say that who one is attracted to is not, in some way innate, or biological. Given the evidence we have, the differences in brain size, we must acknowledge that there are essential differences between those who are drawn to the same sex and those who are drawn to the opposite. Current science has found that prenatal, hormonal chemistry is largely responsible for this difference. In other words, the "homosexual and the "heterosexual's" brains develop differently in the womb (this is considered mainstream science). Yet, this does not account for everything, rather this simply sets up a predisposition. Otherwise, identical twins would always be of the same sexuality . . . which is not the case. No, there can be identical twins where one, sadly, turns out to be a breeder. <<

I must confess what a complex issue all this homosexual thing has become with the GENE involement of modern science, even subsuming twin studies!It seems that the more we know about it, all the more we seem to know that we don't know, doesn't it?
The crucial question remains whether homosexuals are natural-born or nurtured! Someone mentioned the habit of using left hands!
Is there a connection btw left-hands and homosexuals? Worth thinking!

>>Now we get in to the messy mesh of another categorical binary, nature and nurture (why can we never figure out that it is a combination of the two). Our best scientific knowledge at this time states indicates that sexuality (both heterosexual and homosexual) is, indeed, the result of a combination of nature and nurture. <<

I tend to agree with this ASSUMPTION of nature and nurture combination!Or I even tend to believe this issue simply can NEVER be scientifically explained or it is just non-explainable due to the profound limits of human beings: human beings cann't explain to human being themselves what they are really like, unless we have the hepl of the Extra-Terrestrial lives, who probably can look at us differently and accurately from an outsider's point of view!LOL

>>And, as Derida indicates, whenever there is a binary--whether it be black and white; night and day; absence and existence; female and male; or homosexual and heterosexual--there is always one privileged over the other. <<

Forget about the pungently anti-foundational post-modernist Derrida!
He was just a poor parrot of Chinese Lao Zi's Yin-Yang thought 2000 years ago! I encourage you to read more and dig into the world of Lao Zi, always the greatest philosopher of the world ever!

>>* The reason I put scare quotes around "homosexual" and heterosexual" varies by instance. There was no concept of heterosexual and homosexual prior to the 19th century. In examples that precede the coining of these terms, I use the scare quotes to illustrate that these terms are a-historical. When i use the scare quotes in examples after the 19th century, it is to illustrate the inaccuracy of these terms in truly describing human sexuality. <<

Yes! Here concepts matter very little! Human beings just have numerous sayings to refer to what we know as homosexuality as either a biological and/or social phenomenon!

Wintereis, while Shuimo apprecaite yr knoweldge of homosexuality legends in a variety of cultures, should I also point out one big fatal weakness in the strong case you are trying to make for homosexuality?
Why cud you ONLY find support for an appreciation of homosexuality in either primitive/tribal cultures like Papua New Guinea, Egypt, Pre-Columbian Indians) or highly marginalized tributary of ancient mainstream cultures like Western/Chinese?

Now history has evloved that that all major mature dominating cultures either frown upon or despize or even abhor homosexuality, right?
Why? Is it just conincidence or simply the historical inevitable?

Further enlightment from Shuimo is to be expected in the next episode!

Une petite fille Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:58 am GMT
Shuimo is an example of why strong China is bad. They can adopt our economic system, but they can never adopt out ideas of freedom, equality and human dignity.
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Une petite fille, it is utterly stange to Shuimo why you say we Chinse can adopt yr economic system?
Which economic sytem is yours? You surely mean the capitalist system?!
No, capistalist economic system is not yours! Even it is yours, it cannot be monopolized by the west alone, can it?LOL

You also have big probs in defining what is good or bad!
Anyone who aopts yr sytems of anything is good; anyone who doesn't is bad?

You are just too confident about your own tunnel-visioned western culture!LOL


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shuimo fan Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:29 am GMT
<<Shuimo is an example of why strong China is bad. They can adopt our economic system, but they can never adopt out ideas of freedom, equality and human dignity. >>
Nor do they plan to! And why should they? Westerners seem to have some idea that whenever they think of something they like that automatically means it's "universal".
Well, the West is declining for the first time in 500 years, and now others get to decide what is "universal".
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Thank you for your support and understanding for Shuimo, fans! I am so glad you can understand Shuimo so well on this point!

YES, absolutely! The Chinese don't plan to adopt western systems of freedom, equality and human dignity in the slighest in any substantial sense! China is a time-hornored country that has existed in the center of the world for thousands of years! Though we also learned our bitter lesson the hard way from 1840-1949 in recent modern history at the cruel hands of the ungrateful western countries!

Luckily, we are finally awakened as a poweful oriental lion at long last!
Alll the wrongs and misgrievances the west has woefully caused to the world have to be redressed through the re-rise of the Middle Kingdom!Which is a lucky blessing for the rest of world! You better be mentally prepared for this for the sake of avoiding suffering repeatedly surprising mental attacks screaming "You are bad! You should folow western ways"!



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Une petite fille Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:36 am GMT
No. Western ideals are the only good ideals that can possibly exist.
There's a reason why so many people immigrate to the West.
Imagine somebody wanting to move to China and actually stay there... LOL!
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Une petite fille, yr vision is ubearably tunnelled!
Open yr eyes wider and go to China's Beijing and Shanghai and Guangzhou and see for yrselfves how many Western, African faces are enjoying their money-making merry-go-round in China!
As for immigrants to the west, should I say that is just the price being paid back to Western countries for their imperialist lootings and predatory crimes over the centuries?LOL

The majority of Westerners come to China for money (as you yourself have pointed out), or because of an explorer's interest. Nobody goes to China to stay there for a better life.

If it wasn't for Westerners buying cheap Chinese trash, China would just be a bigger shit hole than it is today.

"why you say we Chinse can adopt yr economic system? No, capistalist economic system is not yours! "

And guess who invented capitalistic and socialistic forms of economy? Do the names of Adam Smith and Karl Marx tell you anything? Or do the terms "laissez-faire" and "Kommunismus" have Chinese origins that go back thousands of years?

Yes, I think Western ways are superior. I don't care for other ways, why should I? But the only reason why I'm speaking against you and your country in this thread is because I see it as a threat to MY country and her allies. Do as you wish in China. But when your spending on military increases every year, your silly military parades make the news, and nationalists like you go on babbling about nothing, I feel like I need to speak out!

Une petite fille Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:07 am GMT
The majority of Westerners come to China for money (as you yourself have pointed out), or because of an explorer's interest. Nobody goes to China to stay there for a better life.
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STFU!What the fucking matter with westerners making money in China in yr petty little mind, une petite fille?

I suppose even the foolest fools know what money means for a better life in this world!

Luckily, these westerners are not so idiotic and so imbecile as you as to believe in the triviality of making money!LOL

Let me tell you unenlightened little girl this hush truth:
Making money is millionth times more convincing a reason than any other reason for these rational thinking human beings to come to China, because they know it is essential to have money to have a btter life with the acute awareness that China provides them this opportunity to earn money!


>>If it wasn't for Westerners buying cheap Chinese trash, China would just be a bigger shit hole than it is today. <<

What a fuckingly retarded mind in yr fuckingly petite vision!
Nobody forced such fucking idiots like you une petite filles with gunpoint at yr throat to buy "cheap Chinese trash" as your fuckingly dirty mouth call it!
Or should I say without cheap Chinese trash to fill yr dirty mouth, you wudn't even be able to mouth yr hatred towards China with such merriment?

>>"why you say we Chinse can adopt yr economic system? No, capistalist economic system is not yours! "

And guess who invented capitalistic and socialistic forms of economy? Do the names of Adam Smith and Karl Marx tell you anything? Or do the terms "laissez-faire" and "Kommunismus" have Chinese origins that go back thousands of years? <<<<

What the fucking deal does the issue of who invented what matter to us today?

It is laughable to see someone shamelessly claim credit by saying that capitalistic and socialistic forms of economy were INVENTED! It is as funny as saying that primitive, feudalistic, capitalistic soceities were invented!

No!Such soceities were not invented, but just evoled!
That is the law governing human society!

At any rate, who invented what is no important at all
But it do matter significantly what you do with these inventions!
I suppose I don't need to mention what the major Western countries have evilly done in modern history!LOL


>>>Yes, I think Western ways are superior. I don't care for other ways, why should I? But the only reason why I'm speaking against you and your country in this thread is because I see it as a threat to MY country and her allies. Do as you wish in China. But when your spending on military increases every year, your silly military parades make the news, and nationalists like you go on babbling about nothing, I feel like I need to speak out! <<<

Yes, do mentall masturrbation as much as you wish!

You should thank Shuimo for awakening you out of yr otherwise “I don't care” fond dreams！LOL

Anyway, we live in just one planet!
Western imbeciles like you (I hope not all westerners are like you in seeing the world) can't no longer to afford such "I don't care" mentality as yr grandpas wishfully did,say, decades ago!LOL

Let me put into other words what "une petite fille" tried to articulate: Westerners coming to China to earn money isn't an example of them pursuing a better life in a new wonderful country, it's an example of them using China for their end goal called MONEY (while you still have villages were people enfetter OTTERS to catch fish for them!).

Western countries have done more good than evil. What did China do in the last 200 years? Please give me a list of INVENTIONS and IDEAS that the Chinese came up with during the last two centuries that are of any significance to the rest of the world.

To problem with the West is this:
EVERYTHING is based on one single precept, that we MUST have EVERYTHING that we want, no matter what, and that ANYTHING that prevents us getting EVERYTHING we want is BAD. So Western society is based on GREED and SELFISHNESS. 100%.
That too explains the success of the West. Greed and selfishness are the most motivating emotions, and drive strongly.


In the West anything that prevents you from satisfying your greed is a terrible crime and a RESTRICTION OF FREEDOM. But who said you should be allowed to do everything? Why should you be allowed to do this or that? Just because you want to do it? Is wanting to do something enough reason to be allowed to do it?

And who says we cant have what we want?
You may lack the courage to seize what you want but that doesnt make it wrong.