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European and American Cultural Differences
I wrote this in a post in the Language forum, but thought it would be well suited to the English forum as well. It seems to me that one of the largest contributors to the rise of the English language, or at least its American components, arise from the cultural exchange created by music and other American art forms with other nations. Yet, I think that people who only pay attention to the Madison Ave. side of American culture are missing both the history and the real artistry of it. What do you think? Thoughts, questions, concerns?
<<I find it cringe worthy to see young Europeans quoting Friends and the Simpsons. Even most Americans wouldn't quote Friends. Europeans are often more fanatic about these things even than Americans, just because it's cooler here... it's unnerving. They think EVERYTHING American is cool, they don't seem to realize that just like anything else, there is also a lot, A LOT, of American stuff that is CRAP!>>
Yes, this annoys me to no end as well. Not only because these particular Europeans accept such things without actually making a conscious effort to understand the background and culture its stemming from, but also because it allows so called "European Intellectuals" to reduce American culture to Britney and burgers, which is a surface dimension of the culture at best.
All these things do add to the spread of English around the world, but it marginalizes that which is essential in American culture. Of course, American culture is at somewhat of a disadvantage when attempting to decide what is meaningful art and what is trivial. This is a point that has long been lost on Europeans. Unlike Europe, American culture does not spring from a heavily divided class structure where an Aristocracy determined taste. So, there really are no clear division between high culture and folk culture in the U.S. as in Europe. It is American populism. As an unintended result, it is very hard to determine in American art, literature, and music what is fine art and what is not. They are, generally speaking, equal. This proved quite beneficial to American Artists, writers, and musicians up until very recently. Under this cultural frame, a huge variety of styles and genera were created (for instance, in music there is Blue Grass, country, Folk, Jazz, Blues, Soul, R & B, Big Band, punk, etc). Yet, when companies found that they could make money by picking up people off the street and having them sing what ever manufactured song the company had commisioned, the artistry of the individual was removed. (The British tried this early on in the Rock and Roll era, but were largely rebuffed by the British youth at the time. Now, of course, they have their own Idle). Still, there are many instances even in today's music where this does not hold true and great and innovative forms of art, literature, and music continue to poor out of the United States.
But, I'm not entirely sure I am making myself clear about American populism and the break away from European standards of high and low culture. Here are some examples of this phenomena: American classical music stems from and is continually informed by American popular music. For instance, when Martha Graham commissioned Aaron Copland's "Appalachion Spring" for her ballet, he borrowed directly from an old Quaker tune, "Simple Gifts". When Gershwin was seeking inspiration for his own music, he looked to jazz. Conversely, American popular music is informed by classical music. Indeed, Gershwin's area "Summertime" from the opera Porgy and Bess now vies with the Beatle's "Imagine" as the number one covered pop song in the world.
Original version of "Summertime" as performed by the London Philharmonic directed by Sir. Simon Rattle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7-Qa92Rzbk
One pop version of "Summertime", Janis Joplin live in Stockholm, 1969:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNEgcqWDG4
While this versatility is present in American classical music, it is also present in its folk or popular music. For instance, an American sea shanty is now a staple of many the worlds finest concert choirs. The one I'm referring to is "Shenandoah" (from the Iroquois word meaning daughter of the stars). Though, this can also be said of many other American traditionals and spirituals, including African American spirituals.
A somewhat traditional take on "Shenandoah" performed by the Norwegian soprano, Sissel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5grgB-dV2o
Shenadoah arranged for concert choir (a bad recording, but the one least modified by European aesthetics. That is, it retains the simplicity and depth common in the American Traditional.) The Cologne Cathedral Boys' Choir performs "Oh Shenandoah":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj1qUGKXKog&feature=related
One thing that is true about American culture is its unique ability to simultaneously pay homage to its European roots while mocking what many in America would considered its decadence and snobbery.
Here is an excellent and humorous example: "Glitter and Be Gay" from Bernstein's opera "Candied" as performed by the French Prima Donna, Natalie Dessay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCg4r1Ile4w
So, you see. There are a myriad of advantages and disadvantages to this particular cultural structure. Increased versatility and creativity of the masses, a democratization of the arts, verses a loss of standards established by the elite. Of course, the United States is not without its own elite who push the boundaries of the avant-garde.
Shaker Loops, a piece of American Minimalizm based on Shaker dances choreographed by Itzik Galili:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w1eKG-hdhA
Documentary on Philip Glass' Opera, "Einstein on the Beach":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b26E0D2pm1c
Dear Wintereis
In much of Europe and Britain there is resentment over the domination of American culture and television. However there is also a recognition that some American television programmes are very well made. I am thinking of 'Madmen' which is on again; and the examples that you gave; 'Friends and The Simpsons'. 'The Simpsons' prove that Americans have a sense of humour. What is remarkable is the incredibly high standard over a prolonged period of time. (I believe the art work for The Simpsons is done in Korea That is one of the things that Americans and the Japanese etc are very good at - quality control.
This statement is incorrect.
"Unlike Europe, American culture does not spring from a heavily divided class structure where an Aristocracy determined taste."
Possibly, European tastes are more elitist and less driven by commercial considerations. It is not the 'aristocracy' that determines taste but the cultural elite. When the BBC was founded an important part of its brief was 'to educate', whereas Rupert Murdoch says that he only wants 'to entertain'.
European tastes are often - nationalistic. A Scottish television program can get funding if it is 'Scottish', addresses Scottish issues, and uses Scottish dialects.
European splits up into French, Polish, Dutch, German, etc.
I think you are being overly simplistic about the universal and popular nature of American culture. There were separate charts for 'Black Music' and 'Country and Western' etc. So America has its own cultural divides.
Do not get carried away:
"One thing that is true about American culture is its unique ability to simultaneously pay homage to its European roots while mocking what many in America would considered its decadence and snobbery."
The British press can be very vitriolic towards the Royal Family. The 'News of the World' used to be famous for its two faced attitude towards 'sex'. "Our intrepid reporter entered the brothel and paid for personal services before making his excuses and leaving with a good story". Paying homage while simultaneously mocking, is very common.
Some 'cut and paste' remarks from the article.
.
The cliché about US television, “160 channels and nothing to watch,” now looks snooty and out of date,
Drama is incredibly expensive to make and economies of scale kick in when stories are told over 13 or 24 episodes. They cannot be written by one person alone, nor can they be effectively controlled by studio executives, actors or directors, whose talents by definition lie elsewhere. It requires a team of writers willing to develop character and narrative over a long haul, keeping it focused and fresh.
Showrunners like David Chase (Sopranos), Steven Bochco (Hill Street Blues) or John Wells (ER) helped carve out a space for collaboration. Time and money is also invested. In the US, beyond your individual scripts, you are paid a salary to come into a “writer’s room” and help the work of others.
This ethos has made US television the preferred destination for a generation of great writers.
Although we are blessed with a tradition of great television dramatists, there’s no way that Alan Bleasdale, Dennis Potter or Jimmy McGovern could have written a dozen episodes of a show alone.
And there is a bigger problem. How can you commission a show if you haven’t defined the metrics of success? Should we be chasing audiences or pleasing regulators?
Why does the BBC devote most of its drama budget to three soaps: EastEnders, Casualty and Holby City?
It’s a paradox of our public service broadcasting that soaps are primetime viewing here, while on US television they are a daytime interest.
Why should we dream of competing with the US? We should accept that we no longer punch above our weight and resign ourselves to being a medium-sized country with limited aspirations.
^It's interesting that you should mention "Hill Street Blues", Robin. I caught an episode last night and could not believe how well made it was. (During the actual 80s, I never watched the show.)
This fueled an Internet search. It surprised me to find that many of the most ardent fans of Hill Street Blues are in fact British. Robin, would you care to proffer a guess as to why? (I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams an American following of a UK show about policework there.)
BTW, the show is quite realistic in its portrayal of that slice of American life.
European culture: a virgin-fronted hypocrisy-based culture
American culture: a sex-mad dollar-whoring culture
Both are quite a match for each other in debauchery and hypocrisy, and need to be rehashed and fixed by Chinese Civilization!
<<Some 'cut and paste' remarks from the article.>>
That is really interesting. Though, I don't think that British T.V. really needs to compeat with American T.V. By the number of crossovers, British T.V. shows adapted for American audiences, and shows that came over and reached, perhaps, a cult status in the U.S. The Office is a good example of an adaptation and "Ab. Fab." and "keeping Up Appearances" are very popular among certain subsets of American audiences.
<<In much of Europe and Britain there is resentment over the domination of American culture and television.>>
Indeed, I believe most of us Americans are aware of this sentament. Now, you know how we felt in the 19th century. But, the resentment is rather odd, since, if there was not a market for it in Europe and Britan, it would simply not be there. Part of this, I believe, is due to the fact that English is such a widely spoken language where as both the British and American audiences have such a limited number of bilingual speakers. There are, of course, Spanish chaneels in the U.S. But, they certainly don't have the quality of television available that the English language channels have here.
<<Possibly, European tastes are more elitist and less driven by commercial considerations. It is not the 'aristocracy' that determines taste but the cultural elite. When the BBC was founded an important part of its brief was 'to educate', whereas Rupert Murdoch says that he only wants 'to entertain'.>>
Here I am speaking about the historical roots not the contemporary condition. The cultural elite has derived much of its tastes from the now mostly defunct aristocracy. And, of course, Europe certainly has its folk art and music. I wasn't saying that Queen Elizabeth put out proclimations on what was good and bad music or writing or painting. I doubt her tastes would fall much along the lines of most of her subjects.
To a much smaller extent, the cultural elite of the U.S. shares in this tradition, but as is the case with Operas and Ballets like those I mentioned above, much of the style--that which makes it uniquely American--is derived from folk music, african american spirituals, gosphel etc.
And, to say that the American arts are derived from comercial interst, well, you would only be looking at the surface of it again. I assure you that American artistry does not begin and end with commercial enterprize-- though dissent, in some form or antoher, has been an aspect of it for a very long time:
Woody Guthrie, "Sacco and Vanzetti": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0sYAU96FY0&feature=related
"Strange Fruit", Billie Holiday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs
Neither of these songs were all that commercially successful.
<<whereas Rupert Murdoch says that he only wants 'to entertain'>>
Don't mention that Fox News owning, Austrailian bastard to me. But that does go a long way in explaining a characters like Bill O'Reilly. All this time I thought he was serious, and here he just turned out to be a comedian.
<<European tastes are often - nationalistic. A Scottish television program can get funding if it is 'Scottish', addresses Scottish issues, and uses Scottish dialects.
European splits up into French, Polish, Dutch, German, etc.>>
American tastes are often Nationalistic too. Though, funding for the arts is a harry scarry mess. There is some, but funding like that which is done in Europe and Britan could never be done in the U.S. In the documentary on Glass' Opera "Einstein on the Beach", they mention the near imposibility of staging such productions in the U.S. as aposed to Europe. People here disagree too much on what gets money and what does not. Americans largely prefer artistic success to come from the purchace of music, art, and books. There is a sense that, if the artist has made it financially, they are artists worth keaping. Though, there are large issues with that. PBS and NPR will fund such programs, but again, NPR and PBS are largely funded by their audiences.
<<I think you are being overly simplistic about the universal and popular nature of American culture. There were separate charts for 'Black Music' and 'Country and Western' etc. So America has its own cultural divides.>>
Oh, certainly, yes America has had and retains some of its cultural devides. I never ment, and never would wish to have people think that American culture is some monolith. As I was stating, there have been many different musical generas coming out of the U.S. This is due to the fact that historically and presently, the population has determined taste and the population of the U.S. has been made up of many different subcultures. Now, that doesn't mean I think the U.S. should go back to Black charts and White charts. But, for instance, Rock and Roll is actually a blend of black R &B and white coutry. Most American music of the 20th century is, in some way, a blend of both black and white music.
I think the influence of American culture has reached its peak and is set to either remain constant or fall somewhat, and face more competition from other countries. A lot of people are just sick of it. I have many many friends who have given up on Hollywood completely.
People are starting to resort to anything to get away from it, those crappy Japanese cartoons which have become popular lately are a good example.
<<I think the influence of American culture has reached its peak and is set to either remain constant or fall somewhat, and face more competition from other countries. A lot of people are just sick of it. I have many many friends who have given up on Hollywood completely.
People are starting to resort to anything to get away from it, those crappy Japanese cartoons which have become popular lately are a good example.>>
It is very likely. All cultures eventually wain. I'm sure that it will take some time, as always, for this to occur. Then people will get nostalgic and it will come back for a bit like neoclassicism. Japanese culture would be ok, but if you say that it's going to be Chinese, I'm taking the first shuttle to Mars, life-sustaining atmosphere or not.
Wintereis, I have to agree.
There's very little about the Chinese culture that I can stomach.
What a bunch of shite// American culture is the free market// it might as well be called the free market states of america.//its a double edge sword but still///its greatness is simply that it has 300 million consumers//if you got 300 people in one club and 30 in the next who do you think is gonna be able to afford the better band// the only thinnk usa does well is taking the best talent from other countries// just think one of the greatest american classics , the terminators movies// the main actor is either welsh//austrailian// or austrian// and the main director is a canadian.// A simpler way to look at it is this// what american culturel things come strictly from florida, i couldn't tell you a single thing why, even though florida has 20 million people(the same as austrailia, it's not big enough to support any major aprojects without the support of atleast people from california or newyork. It's a numbers game and at the current moment america can't be touched. All the smaller clubs can't keep their own people because they all have to goto america to make it big. The same thing can be found in hockey. They have 5/6 th the teams yet only 1/6 of the players, why because canada only has six cities with 1 million plus people, yet USA has over thirty.
Shuimo as always, says 'what about China'? Vinlander points out that America is a large and wealthy market for art and sport. Vinlander suggests that culture is to a certain extent a numbers game. Well, if it was just a numbers game, then China would win.
It is certainly true that America sucks in talent from across the world. The same used to be true about Britain. When Marconi wanted to develop his ideas, he came to Britain to get the funding. People in Britain could see the applications and the benefits that could come from his ideas.
Dubai is celebrating the world's tallest building. At the same time, the Dubai economy is virtually bankrupt. It is a similar story in Iceland. You have to have a sound economy to sustain extravagant projects. The rationale behind the formation of the European Union was that by creating a single market, Europe would be able to compete with America. Airbus is able to compete with Boeing, because Airbus has a comparable domestic market and political backing.
I am sure that a lot of people are looking at China's development. At the moment they see a lot of potential but no money. It is very easy to put money into developing countries. It is not so easy to get money back out again.
Football clubs like Manchester United are very pleased that they have a huge following in China. They think that this may be the foundation of future greatness and wealth. But they know in the meantime, the money comes from other places.
There is a problem of language with China. People might buy Chinese washing machines, (or at least I do, despite the advice of the lady from Comet). But they do not buy Chinese soap operas. Chinese culture does not travel like Chinese cooking.
<<What a bunch of shite// American culture is the free market// it might as well be called the free market states of america.//its a double edge sword but still///its greatness is simply that it has 300 million consumers//if you got 300 people in one club and 30 in the next>>
First, I never claimed that American culture was superior, so I'm not sure why you have your panties are in such a twist, but I suppose that is your prerogative.
Secondly, I'm not sure anyone would call the Terminator movies classics. That is definitely a new one for me. And sure, people come to the U.S. both "talented" and "untalented people". That has been happening for years. Indeed, that is why the population of the U.S. is as large as it is.
Thirdly, what are "aprojects"?
Fourthly, I think your point about Florida actually disproves your theory about population making a difference in the creation of culture. Now, I won't say that Florida doesn't have its own unique styles, that would be very wrong. There is a unique form of Jazz fusion there.
Yet, the birthplace of Jazz is one city, New Orleans.
<<Street Jazz music can trace its roots back to Congo Square in New Orleans in 1835, when slaves would congregate there to play music and dance on Sundays. While more accurately described at that time as African music, the area and activity laid forth the groundwork for the art form to come. Jazz is often associated with the expression of freedom for this very reason, for the music was birthed from these festivities each week where slaves were permitted to express themselves despite oppression. By 1838 the local paper—the daily Picayune—ran a scathing article complaining about the emergence of brass bands in the city, which it stated could be found on every corner.[1] In 1885 local authorities tried to outlaw such expression in the square, though the restriction was not long-lived.>>
Now, the population of New Orleans has never been even close to 20 million people.
Also, the home of Blue Grass music is basically a very rural part of the Southern Appalachians, mostly in eastern Kentucky. Now, The current population of Kentucky is 4,269,245. This is far more than the population that lives in Kentucky's Appalachians. So, far less "consumers" than either Florida of Australia.
So, your population theory, though interesting, doesn't exactly fit.
***There's very little about the Chinese culture that I can stomach***
Well, when it comes to Chinese food and Chinese restaurants and Chinese takeaways there is a massive amount of it I can literally stomach, and that goes for most British people, certainly in my age group and younger.
A good chicken tikka masala is now consiodered to be the British national dish.
But aside from the culture of food I have to agree with Jasper, most certainly when it comes down to basic human rights and a recognition of individualism, something which the British people as a whole hold dear to their hearts.
We in the UK have witnessed this abuse of basic humanity at work in China only recently when they executed a British man who was clearly suffering from a mental condition which, had he been tried in a British court of law, would have been found not responsible for his actions and treated accordingly, not the case in China it seems.
Apparently that doesn't apply in the Chinese mindset, but I still adore their takeaways and their four page menus packed with scrumptiousness, but of course most of the Chinese people running British restaurants and takeaways have never been closer to China than the Costa Blanca or Palma di Mallorca, or Majorca as Brits would have it spelled....a load of Ballearics.
>>>>Damian in Edinburgh Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:26 pm GMT
***There's very little about the Chinese culture that I can stomach***
Well, when it comes to Chinese food and Chinese restaurants and Chinese takeaways there is a massive amount of it I can literally stomach, and that goes for most British people, certainly in my age group and younger. <<<<
You are at last in the mainstream, good for you!
>>>But aside from the culture of food I have to agree with Jasper, most certainly when it comes down to basic human rights and a recognition of individualism, something which the British people as a whole hold dear to their hearts. <<<
Yr madly cherished individualism is to us Chinese a debased reflection of Western bottomless selfishness which is now finally leadiing yr downfall!
>>We in the UK have witnessed this abuse of basic humanity at work in China only recently when they executed a British man who was clearly suffering from a mental condition which, had he been tried in a British court of law, would have been found not responsible for his actions and treated accordingly, not the case in China it seems. <<
What a brainwashed statement from a jingoistic little Britisher!
Or you are just feigning innocence?
Even a vast number of britshers have expressed support over Chinese gov's execution decision!
No need for Shuimo to elaborate on this!
Britishers have long degerated into second- or even third-rate citizens of second countries!
Now yr hooligan-like citizens commited crimes on Chinese soil and deserve to be put to death by Chinese law!
>>Apparently that doesn't apply in the Chinese mindset>>
Of course, you brits live in yr tiny pit world with demoralizing values, never have the brains to understand what civilized life means !
>>but I still adore their takeaways and their four page menus packed with scrumptiousness, but of course most of the Chinese people running British restaurants and takeaways have never been closer to China than the Costa Blanca or Palma di Mallorca, or Majorca as Brits would have it spelled....a load of Ballearics. <<<
Again you are too brainwashed to understand anything about Chinese!
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