Jr : « phonology of Spanish is of that of "classical latin & italian." »
Rien n'est plus faux.
Rien n'est plus faux.
Spanish and Italian are much closer than Italian and French
Greg, I don't know French. So your comment doesn't apply or is reckon with.
Classical latin's phonology is of that of "Sardinian/Italian/Spanish."
french/occitan/portuguese/galician are similar in grammar and in phonology.
"Falsus in uno, falsus in omnes."
Classical latin's phonology is of that of "Sardinian/Italian/Spanish."
french/occitan/portuguese/galician are similar in grammar and in phonology.
"Falsus in uno, falsus in omnes."
Jr : le système consonantique du toscan n'est pas celui de l'orolatin classique ! Quan au système consonantique du castillan, affirmer qu'il est identique à celui de l'orolatin classique est totalement absurde !
S.P.Q.R : à mon avis, la phonologie la plus proche de celle de l'orolatin classique est... celle de l'orolatin classique !
S.P.Q.R : à mon avis, la phonologie la plus proche de celle de l'orolatin classique est... celle de l'orolatin classique !
<<<S.P.Q.R : à mon avis, la phonologie la plus proche de celle de l'orolatin classique est... celle de l'orolatin classique ! <<<
Indeed, it is true, however we are talking about similiarities, i think along some other linguists that italian resembles a bit closer the phonology of the C. Latin.
References Are:
M. PEi.
E. Segre and others.
Indeed, it is true, however we are talking about similiarities, i think along some other linguists that italian resembles a bit closer the phonology of the C. Latin.
References Are:
M. PEi.
E. Segre and others.
>>Yes, the people and culture may share some similarities (the similar flag doesn't counter here), and even the architecture may be similar in some respects. But people are speaking of these two countries like they are next door neighbours, with a similar history. This is a fallacy. How quickly people seem to get off topic in this forum, save for a few who know how to differentiate between fact and fiction. When I was in Mexico, it was common to see Italians thinking that they could communicate flawlessly with the Mexicans. How wrong they were.<<
Of course not! Mexico and Italy are thousands of miles away, the culture is, of course going to be different. But there are certain parts of Mexico in which it resembles Italy, not exactly like it, but resembles. Even so, its not the enitre country, or most of it. Spanish and Italian are different languages, many words sound or look the same, but the actual languages, when spoken, are likely to not make much sense to the speaker of the other language.
The same happens with Portuguese, to a lesser extent. A Portuguese speaker and a Spanish speaker will not be able to communicate without some trouble. The pronnunciations are just too different. While written, the two languages are very much like each other, its a different story when spoken, especially when the two trying to communicate are those who have no experience in the other language.
Of course not! Mexico and Italy are thousands of miles away, the culture is, of course going to be different. But there are certain parts of Mexico in which it resembles Italy, not exactly like it, but resembles. Even so, its not the enitre country, or most of it. Spanish and Italian are different languages, many words sound or look the same, but the actual languages, when spoken, are likely to not make much sense to the speaker of the other language.
The same happens with Portuguese, to a lesser extent. A Portuguese speaker and a Spanish speaker will not be able to communicate without some trouble. The pronnunciations are just too different. While written, the two languages are very much like each other, its a different story when spoken, especially when the two trying to communicate are those who have no experience in the other language.
JR - in response to your earlier question, 'essas' is not 'issas', it's 'essas' in Portuguese, and 'esas' in Spanish.
Secondly, you said, "Classical latin's phonology is of that of "Sardinian/Italian/Spanish."
You also said that "french/occitan/portuguese/galician are similar in grammar and in phonology".
Why do you insist on not including Portuguese with Castilian, when the two lanuguages share 90% of the same vocabulary??? Are you suggesting that Galician and Portuguese can be grouped together, but not with Castilian? What kind of reasoning is that?
Lastly, Portuguese is a lot closer to Classical Latin than what some people in this foum would have us believe.
Alan Tucker, editor of the Penguin Travel Guide To Portugal, 1990, quotes English explorer Richard Burton: "Portugal, the western terminus of Rome's conquests, remains to the present day the most Roman of Latin countries," he wrote in 1869. "Her language approaches nearest to the speech of the ancient mistress of the world (Rome)...Even in the present day, the traveller in Portugal sees, with astonishment the domestic life of Rome, her poetry and literature, her arts and sciences."
Even today, Portuguese still retains the final 'm' in a great many words - something which characterized the ancient Latin language. For example, the word 'com' - from the Latin 'cum', which means 'with' in English. This is just one single example, but I assure you that there are hundreds more. So the notion that Spanish is more Latin than Portuguese does not make sense. Portuguese is about as Latin a language as there is. It may not be as close to Classical Latin as Italian, but Portuguese is certainy no less closer to Classical Latin than Spanish. Jorge.
Secondly, you said, "Classical latin's phonology is of that of "Sardinian/Italian/Spanish."
You also said that "french/occitan/portuguese/galician are similar in grammar and in phonology".
Why do you insist on not including Portuguese with Castilian, when the two lanuguages share 90% of the same vocabulary??? Are you suggesting that Galician and Portuguese can be grouped together, but not with Castilian? What kind of reasoning is that?
Lastly, Portuguese is a lot closer to Classical Latin than what some people in this foum would have us believe.
Alan Tucker, editor of the Penguin Travel Guide To Portugal, 1990, quotes English explorer Richard Burton: "Portugal, the western terminus of Rome's conquests, remains to the present day the most Roman of Latin countries," he wrote in 1869. "Her language approaches nearest to the speech of the ancient mistress of the world (Rome)...Even in the present day, the traveller in Portugal sees, with astonishment the domestic life of Rome, her poetry and literature, her arts and sciences."
Even today, Portuguese still retains the final 'm' in a great many words - something which characterized the ancient Latin language. For example, the word 'com' - from the Latin 'cum', which means 'with' in English. This is just one single example, but I assure you that there are hundreds more. So the notion that Spanish is more Latin than Portuguese does not make sense. Portuguese is about as Latin a language as there is. It may not be as close to Classical Latin as Italian, but Portuguese is certainy no less closer to Classical Latin than Spanish. Jorge.
"Througout history there was significantly more cultural happenings between Spain and Italy than there was between France and Italy."
Non so come si dice in Castigliano o Francese, ma mi sembra una gran cazzata per quanto riguarda il Lazio in su.
Non so come si dice in Castigliano o Francese, ma mi sembra una gran cazzata per quanto riguarda il Lazio in su.
>>>JR - in response to your earlier question, 'essas' is not 'issas', it's 'essas' in Portuguese, and 'esas' in Spanish.<<<
I think you mean "Jr"
Perhaps I should choose a different name...
I think you mean "Jr"
Perhaps I should choose a different name...
Jorge;
Do you know what's Phonology? PHONETICS (how it' sounds)
Spanish & Italian have ALMOST the same phonology, to that of "Classical latin."
PORTUGUESE
In standard Portuguese it consists of 9 simple vowels, 5 nasalized vowels, 2 semivowels, 25 simple diphthongs, 4 nasalized diphthongs, 5 simple triphthongs, 4 nasalized triphthongs, 21 consonants, or a total of 75 entities. Unstressed vowels are reduced. The nasalization is indicated in the orthography by m or n following the vowel (e.g., sim yes, bem well) or by the use of a tilde (~) over the vowel (mão hand, nação nation).
SPANISH
Spanish has simplified the Vulgar Latin vocal system to only 5 open vowels (as in Classical Latin) -- a. e, i, o, u -- that are pronounced clearly and without reduction in both stressed and unstressed positions. The vowels, that are short in Classic Latin, diphthongate when stressed in Spanish
ITALIAN
The sound system of Italian did not evolve further than that of Vulgar Latin. The vocal system consists of 7 vowels and is considered triangular (as that of Classical Latin and modern Spanish):
"Italian is similar enough to Spanish to make some communication possible between native speakers of both languages."
"Portuguese is similar enough to spanish to make written/read communication possible between native speakers of both languages."
Although this "only" applies to people WHOM don't know "either" Italian nor Portuguese, but if one did....it would generally raise a bit in comprehending.
Do you know what's Phonology? PHONETICS (how it' sounds)
Spanish & Italian have ALMOST the same phonology, to that of "Classical latin."
PORTUGUESE
In standard Portuguese it consists of 9 simple vowels, 5 nasalized vowels, 2 semivowels, 25 simple diphthongs, 4 nasalized diphthongs, 5 simple triphthongs, 4 nasalized triphthongs, 21 consonants, or a total of 75 entities. Unstressed vowels are reduced. The nasalization is indicated in the orthography by m or n following the vowel (e.g., sim yes, bem well) or by the use of a tilde (~) over the vowel (mão hand, nação nation).
SPANISH
Spanish has simplified the Vulgar Latin vocal system to only 5 open vowels (as in Classical Latin) -- a. e, i, o, u -- that are pronounced clearly and without reduction in both stressed and unstressed positions. The vowels, that are short in Classic Latin, diphthongate when stressed in Spanish
ITALIAN
The sound system of Italian did not evolve further than that of Vulgar Latin. The vocal system consists of 7 vowels and is considered triangular (as that of Classical Latin and modern Spanish):
"Italian is similar enough to Spanish to make some communication possible between native speakers of both languages."
"Portuguese is similar enough to spanish to make written/read communication possible between native speakers of both languages."
Although this "only" applies to people WHOM don't know "either" Italian nor Portuguese, but if one did....it would generally raise a bit in comprehending.
S.P.Q.R : « References Are: M. PEi. E. Segre and others. »
Non, ce que tu cites sont des *NOMS*, pas des *CONCEPTS*. J'attends toujours une démonstartion prouvée.
Jr : « Spanish & Italian have ALMOST the same phonology, to that of "Classical latin." »
Tiens, tiens... « ALMOST » ? Pourquoi « ALMOST » maintenant ? Ton petit château de cartes s'effondrerait-il ?
À chaque fois que tu tentes une maigre comparaison, soit il n'y a pas d'exemple, soit ceux-ci sont limités aux voyelles. Les consonnes ne sont jamais abordées. Et l'accentuation non plus.
Un conseil : documente-toi avant de répandre tes phantasmes à la vue de tous.
Non, ce que tu cites sont des *NOMS*, pas des *CONCEPTS*. J'attends toujours une démonstartion prouvée.
Jr : « Spanish & Italian have ALMOST the same phonology, to that of "Classical latin." »
Tiens, tiens... « ALMOST » ? Pourquoi « ALMOST » maintenant ? Ton petit château de cartes s'effondrerait-il ?
À chaque fois que tu tentes une maigre comparaison, soit il n'y a pas d'exemple, soit ceux-ci sont limités aux voyelles. Les consonnes ne sont jamais abordées. Et l'accentuation non plus.
Un conseil : documente-toi avant de répandre tes phantasmes à la vue de tous.
To greg:
I can cite you the books if you want, or do you want me to post an entire chapter?
I can cite you the books if you want, or do you want me to post an entire chapter?
J'aimerais assez que tu t'exprimes par toi-même en illustrant la progression de ta pensée ou de la thèse que tu soutiens par des exemples où les aspects majeurs du phonétisme (pas du graphisme) ne seraient pas négligés.
è più vicino l'italiano allo spagnolo che
il piemontese all'italiano
il pugliese all'italiano
l'e pu"see vizin el talijan al hispagneul a post del
pijemuntez al talijan
pu"lijez al talijan
(insubria lingvo-okcidenta lombarda)
(insubric language- western lombard)
la me lengua la mia lingua
mario (>el marju)
righi>rix (>vergingetoRIX)
alcuni esempi vu"n quej ezenpi
oggi ho visto tre ragazzi e tre ragazze
incoeu g'huu vedu" tri bagaj e tre tuzan
bagaj= ragazzo from welsh bacgen
special plural of tuza>tuzan
incoeu= in hoc die
vu"n/voeuna - du"/du - tri/tre - quater - çinch - ses - set - vot -
noeuf - dez - vu"ndez etc
salu"di, se vedum
ciao, arrivederci
cosa pensate che la mia lingua sia un dialetto? dialetto di che cosa, dell'italiano, del francese? dell'occitano?
il piemontese all'italiano
il pugliese all'italiano
l'e pu"see vizin el talijan al hispagneul a post del
pijemuntez al talijan
pu"lijez al talijan
(insubria lingvo-okcidenta lombarda)
(insubric language- western lombard)
la me lengua la mia lingua
mario (>el marju)
righi>rix (>vergingetoRIX)
alcuni esempi vu"n quej ezenpi
oggi ho visto tre ragazzi e tre ragazze
incoeu g'huu vedu" tri bagaj e tre tuzan
bagaj= ragazzo from welsh bacgen
special plural of tuza>tuzan
incoeu= in hoc die
vu"n/voeuna - du"/du - tri/tre - quater - çinch - ses - set - vot -
noeuf - dez - vu"ndez etc
salu"di, se vedum
ciao, arrivederci
cosa pensate che la mia lingua sia un dialetto? dialetto di che cosa, dell'italiano, del francese? dell'occitano?
Jorge Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:51 am GMT:
««For example, the word 'com' - from the Latin 'cum', which means 'with' in English. This is just one single example, but I assure you that there are hundreds more. So the notion that Spanish is more Latin than Portuguese does not make sense.»»
Who cares if Portuguese is more Latin or less Latin than any other Romance language! Portuguese has more late East-European tribe’s influence, this is what makes it different from Spanish.
The word ”com” does not derive from the Latin 'cum' but from the Celtic '*kom' , Celtic was already spoken in the Iberian peninsula.
Portuguese is a Romance language, but denying the influence of the other cultures or minimizing its importance is to ignore an important part of the Portuguese history and language.
Jr Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:06 am GMT :
"Portuguese is similar enough to Spanish to make written/read communication possible between native speakers of both languages."
Communication is mostly one way as Portuguese people do not have much difficulty in understanding spoken Castilian. Castilian is much simpler than Portuguese.
««For example, the word 'com' - from the Latin 'cum', which means 'with' in English. This is just one single example, but I assure you that there are hundreds more. So the notion that Spanish is more Latin than Portuguese does not make sense.»»
Who cares if Portuguese is more Latin or less Latin than any other Romance language! Portuguese has more late East-European tribe’s influence, this is what makes it different from Spanish.
The word ”com” does not derive from the Latin 'cum' but from the Celtic '*kom' , Celtic was already spoken in the Iberian peninsula.
Portuguese is a Romance language, but denying the influence of the other cultures or minimizing its importance is to ignore an important part of the Portuguese history and language.
Jr Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:06 am GMT :
"Portuguese is similar enough to Spanish to make written/read communication possible between native speakers of both languages."
Communication is mostly one way as Portuguese people do not have much difficulty in understanding spoken Castilian. Castilian is much simpler than Portuguese.