Exactly ALDVS.
What language is easiest for Spanish Speakers to understand?
As I said in earlier postings, I'm originally from Panama, and I strongly disagree with Aldvs and LAA. I don't understand the antipathy toward the Portuguese language you guys obviously have. The Portuguese language is gaining much respect as a major language worldwide. No, I would personally prefer to learn Portuguese before any other language for a number of practical reasons. First of all, Portuguese is already so close to Spanish that learning it would be very simple. Secondly, why wouldn't anyone want to learn a modern day Romance language (Portuguese) which is growing every day, and is the 5th most spoken language in the world, with speakers on 4 continents? People overestimate the Italian language, which has very little extension geographically.
Portuguese is a language of the future, not Italian. And if you delude yourselves for one second that Spanish speakers prefer learning Italian over Portuguese, think again. The sobering truth is that Latin American Spanish speaking countries have ackowledged the great importance and practicality of learning Portuguese. They even went as far as making Portuguese the 2nd most important language taught in their schools, made a reality by the 'Mercosur' agreement. Brazil teaches Spanish as the 2nd language, and in most of South American Spanish speaking countries Portuguese is the 2nd language taught. The facts speak for themselves.
As for us Spanish seapkers, we are already 85% of the way there even without having any formal training in Portuguese - ditto for the Portuguese speakers with Spanish. Speakers of Portuguese and Spanish are linguistic hermanos. Sorry if that offends the sensibility of Italian speakers.
Portuguese is a language of the future, not Italian. And if you delude yourselves for one second that Spanish speakers prefer learning Italian over Portuguese, think again. The sobering truth is that Latin American Spanish speaking countries have ackowledged the great importance and practicality of learning Portuguese. They even went as far as making Portuguese the 2nd most important language taught in their schools, made a reality by the 'Mercosur' agreement. Brazil teaches Spanish as the 2nd language, and in most of South American Spanish speaking countries Portuguese is the 2nd language taught. The facts speak for themselves.
As for us Spanish seapkers, we are already 85% of the way there even without having any formal training in Portuguese - ditto for the Portuguese speakers with Spanish. Speakers of Portuguese and Spanish are linguistic hermanos. Sorry if that offends the sensibility of Italian speakers.
<<As for us Spanish seapkers, we are already 85% of the way there even without having any formal training in Portuguese ->>
And what about Italian? Spanish and Portuguese may share 85% of the same vocabulary, but Spanish and Italian share 82%. The difference is a whopping three percentage points then. And coupled with the fact that spoken Italian is very similar to Spanish, while Portuguese diverges in phonology, Italian is actually the more similar between the two, at least in spoken form. Italian is the language of the arts, of opera, classical music, fine cuisine. What can Portuguese boast? Unless you plan on doing a lot of business with Portuguese speakers (which would mean basically Brazil), then it would be more advantageous to learn English, or even Italian, although Italian is not spoken as widely geographically.
And what about Italian? Spanish and Portuguese may share 85% of the same vocabulary, but Spanish and Italian share 82%. The difference is a whopping three percentage points then. And coupled with the fact that spoken Italian is very similar to Spanish, while Portuguese diverges in phonology, Italian is actually the more similar between the two, at least in spoken form. Italian is the language of the arts, of opera, classical music, fine cuisine. What can Portuguese boast? Unless you plan on doing a lot of business with Portuguese speakers (which would mean basically Brazil), then it would be more advantageous to learn English, or even Italian, although Italian is not spoken as widely geographically.
It appears that Portuguese is gaining in acceptance and in numbers of speakers, at least in South America. Italian, on the other hand is not growing in numbers of speakers. It isn't declining either. It seems that Italian is ranked fourth in importance and influence among the five major Romance Languages. Again, this isn't to say that the Italian language is in danger of becoming extinct. I believe that Italian will always be held in high regard by speakers of other Romance Languages. But watch out for Portuguese. I think that it will have the same importance and number of speakers as Spanish in the not too distant future.
Tiffany, I've read that, in Italy, there are approximately 1500 different dialects currently spoken. Even among my folks, although my parents hometowns are not very far from eachother, there is still a noticable difference in the way they speak. In fact, there are many words in their separate dialects which are totally foreign to oneanother.
LAA - Portuguese and Spanish actually have an 89% lexical similarity according to the ethnologue of languages. Plus they share a very similar grammar and orthography. So that's not a 3% difference from Italian, but 5%, which is a lot. Plus, Spanish and Portuguese share almost 1000 words of Arabic origin which Italian does not. Again, a 5% difference is quite significant. Again, similar accent means nothing when the words are different.......you can say the word as beautifully as you like in Italian, but if it is a markedly different word from Portuguese or Spanish, they won't understand you. So it is not a simple matter of phonology, because it only goes so far, and often not far enough to foster intelligibilty.
Correction - sorry not a 5% difference in vocabulary between Spanish/Portuguese compard to Italian, but 7%. This reinforces my point even more. A 7% difference is HUGE.
Portuguese is ugly. It sounds ugly. I detest it. Portuguese phonetics sounds like "beenie the beaver" from Winnie the pooh.
Well, Portuguese is not accepted in the USA, so many Brazilian singers must sing in Spanish to gain some success, take Alexandre Pires for example. I bet many Americans think he is Venezuelan and not Brazilian.
His last name ends in -s. That's usually a dead giveaway for making distinctions between Portuguese and Spanish names.
Tomi: In written form, Spanish and Portuguese are incredibly similar, yes. But in spoken forum, the differences become more pronounced. And it is more difficult for me to pronounce Portuguese than Italian. Portuguese has a lot of Celtic influence in its phonology, the same way French does. Spanish and Portuguese are the closest in lexicon. As are French and Italian. But, Spanish and Italian are the closest in phonology. This, at least has a cancelling out or neutralizing effect.
Tomi: In written form, Spanish and Portuguese are incredibly similar, yes. But in spoken forum, the differences become more pronounced. And it is more difficult for me to pronounce Portuguese than Italian. Portuguese has a lot of Celtic influence in its phonology, the same way French does. Spanish and Portuguese are the closest in lexicon. As are French and Italian. But, Spanish and Italian are the closest in phonology. This, at least has a cancelling out or neutralizing effect.
««Italian is the language of the arts, of opera, classical music, fine cuisine. What can Portuguese boast? »»
The Portuguese is the languge of the discoveries, of nautical science, it is also the land of fado. You may think that the belle cuisine is more important than discoveries but I can tell you that the Portuguese cuisine is also great, ever tried "convent sweets"?. Or Porto wine?
Europe would have been several hundred years behind if the Portuguese had not started the exploration and discoveries around the world.
“ As a result of the great maritime expeditions of this period Portugal became largely responsible for bringing Europe closer to Africa, Asia, the Americas and Oceania. The significance of the Portuguese discoveries in the history of civilizations is that they made an extraordinary contribution to the opening up of the planet. “
“ Other European peoples spread out into the wider world later than the Portuguese, who can be said to have ushered in a new era of knowledge and human history in the 1420s and 1430s.”
“Portugal's geographic discoveries were not only ahead of those of other European countries, but the Portuguese were also the first to reach all the continents (Africa, Asia, the Americas and Oceania) and the major oceans (the Atlantic, the Indian and the Pacific).”
“As a result of this vast enterprise, Portugal became the repository of a data bank on a planetary scale. For the first time, a worldwide system of material and intellectual exchanges took shape. Never before had such a mass of information in so many fields-from the determination of latitudes, watersheds, and magnetic declinations to botany, zoology, mineralogy-been compiled and classified.”
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1310/is_1989_April/ai_7655973/pg_1
««Unless you plan on doing a lot of business with Portuguese speakers (which would mean basically Brazil),»»
Well Portugal is the six biggest investor in Brazil! That is because Portuguese do not do business. Haha
««His last name ends in -s. That's usually a dead giveaway for making distinctions between Portuguese and Spanish names.»»
And?? You think it is to make distinctions? Never crossed your mind it represented the same sound?
In ancient Portuguese, the letters i and j were often used interchangeably, as were the letters s and z. Even after their usage was well defined, many scribes did not distinguish between them. From practice text 1, line 2, we have taken the name Isabel de Jezus:
http://homepage.mac.com/kmacardoza/Genealogy/Paleography/paleography_03.html
LAA I can see your knowledge of Portugal is close to nothing.
Llorenna Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:48 pm GMT
««Well, Portuguese is not accepted in the USA, so many Brazilian singers must sing in Spanish to gain some success, take Alexandre Pires for example. I bet many Americans think he is Venezuelan and not Brazilian.»»
And she says she is Brazilian. hahah
The Portuguese is the languge of the discoveries, of nautical science, it is also the land of fado. You may think that the belle cuisine is more important than discoveries but I can tell you that the Portuguese cuisine is also great, ever tried "convent sweets"?. Or Porto wine?
Europe would have been several hundred years behind if the Portuguese had not started the exploration and discoveries around the world.
“ As a result of the great maritime expeditions of this period Portugal became largely responsible for bringing Europe closer to Africa, Asia, the Americas and Oceania. The significance of the Portuguese discoveries in the history of civilizations is that they made an extraordinary contribution to the opening up of the planet. “
“ Other European peoples spread out into the wider world later than the Portuguese, who can be said to have ushered in a new era of knowledge and human history in the 1420s and 1430s.”
“Portugal's geographic discoveries were not only ahead of those of other European countries, but the Portuguese were also the first to reach all the continents (Africa, Asia, the Americas and Oceania) and the major oceans (the Atlantic, the Indian and the Pacific).”
“As a result of this vast enterprise, Portugal became the repository of a data bank on a planetary scale. For the first time, a worldwide system of material and intellectual exchanges took shape. Never before had such a mass of information in so many fields-from the determination of latitudes, watersheds, and magnetic declinations to botany, zoology, mineralogy-been compiled and classified.”
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1310/is_1989_April/ai_7655973/pg_1
««Unless you plan on doing a lot of business with Portuguese speakers (which would mean basically Brazil),»»
Well Portugal is the six biggest investor in Brazil! That is because Portuguese do not do business. Haha
««His last name ends in -s. That's usually a dead giveaway for making distinctions between Portuguese and Spanish names.»»
And?? You think it is to make distinctions? Never crossed your mind it represented the same sound?
In ancient Portuguese, the letters i and j were often used interchangeably, as were the letters s and z. Even after their usage was well defined, many scribes did not distinguish between them. From practice text 1, line 2, we have taken the name Isabel de Jezus:
http://homepage.mac.com/kmacardoza/Genealogy/Paleography/paleography_03.html
LAA I can see your knowledge of Portugal is close to nothing.
Llorenna Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:48 pm GMT
««Well, Portuguese is not accepted in the USA, so many Brazilian singers must sing in Spanish to gain some success, take Alexandre Pires for example. I bet many Americans think he is Venezuelan and not Brazilian.»»
And she says she is Brazilian. hahah
<<The Portuguese is the languge of the discoveries, of nautical science,>>
No, it's not. Portugal, the country, contributed these things to the world, and these are national achievements of Portugal, yes. That doesn't mean that *Portuguese* is "the language of discovery*. That's like saying that I need to know Portuguese to navigate the ocean. Or, I need to know Portugese to open my way to all the new lands of Asia, Africa, and the Western Hemisphere. "I'm going on vacation to the Sudan." - "Oh wait, you can't! In order to open the path to exotic lands, you must first learn Portuguese! Otherwise, you can't make it out of the airport."
For the things which I listed in Italian however, it does help to know the actual LANGUAGE. Italian cuisine is famous worldwide. If you want to read up on works written by famous Italian chefs, it might be advantageous to learn Italian so you can learn from the masters in culinary arts. Or, a great deal of Opera is in Italian. If you really want to appreciate the story of the play, you might want to learn Italian, so you can actually understand the dialogue. There are a lot of words that relate to the arts which are Italian, because Italy was a pioneer in this respect, during the Italian Rennaisance and all the way to this day. Americans frequently visit Italy as tourists. They wish to visit a lot of ancient Roman archeological sites. Sample fine wines and cuisine, and witness for themselves things like St. Peter's basillica, or The David, or the Cistine Chapel, or Florence, or the canals of Venice, etc. There are a lot of reasons why learning Italian can be beneficial for an American, and in my opinion, the advantages of learning Italian outweigh those of learning Portuguese, especially considering the difficulties encountered when trying to learn the dialect of Brazil and Portugal.
No, it's not. Portugal, the country, contributed these things to the world, and these are national achievements of Portugal, yes. That doesn't mean that *Portuguese* is "the language of discovery*. That's like saying that I need to know Portuguese to navigate the ocean. Or, I need to know Portugese to open my way to all the new lands of Asia, Africa, and the Western Hemisphere. "I'm going on vacation to the Sudan." - "Oh wait, you can't! In order to open the path to exotic lands, you must first learn Portuguese! Otherwise, you can't make it out of the airport."
For the things which I listed in Italian however, it does help to know the actual LANGUAGE. Italian cuisine is famous worldwide. If you want to read up on works written by famous Italian chefs, it might be advantageous to learn Italian so you can learn from the masters in culinary arts. Or, a great deal of Opera is in Italian. If you really want to appreciate the story of the play, you might want to learn Italian, so you can actually understand the dialogue. There are a lot of words that relate to the arts which are Italian, because Italy was a pioneer in this respect, during the Italian Rennaisance and all the way to this day. Americans frequently visit Italy as tourists. They wish to visit a lot of ancient Roman archeological sites. Sample fine wines and cuisine, and witness for themselves things like St. Peter's basillica, or The David, or the Cistine Chapel, or Florence, or the canals of Venice, etc. There are a lot of reasons why learning Italian can be beneficial for an American, and in my opinion, the advantages of learning Italian outweigh those of learning Portuguese, especially considering the difficulties encountered when trying to learn the dialect of Brazil and Portugal.
Most of the posters on this forum are either European or American. Portuguese, I would say, is only really important in South America, where the geographical giant Brazil dominates the continent, sharing borders with just about all the major Spanish speaking countries.
In America, Portuguese is a distant language, recognized by most as "Spanish" or perhaps French. Up here, it is not a very pressing language to learn. In fact, if you have English and Spanish covered, you're pretty much set. French and German are the other major languages that are learned, mostly because the student enjoys their sound or is interested in the field. Of the students that took French in college, a considerable percentage took at least one semester of Italian (I don't remember the statistic, it was something in the 30%s, it was a 1998 statistic), with most (the percentage also in the 30s) taking 2 or more semesters.
It is understandable, if you took French you will see the similarities in Italian, and most recognize the cultural impact that country has had on the West. It's worth learning, even if just for the Opera.
But Portuguese is not really a language of culture, not much outside of South America anyway, so I would venture to say most people would only learn it just 'because they want to.' I am one of those people. I plan to take Italian and Portuguese after finishing my studies in French, or at least the first four years. Portuguese is not a useless a language as some people are making it sound, but it is not as important as others are portraying it.
In America, Portuguese is a distant language, recognized by most as "Spanish" or perhaps French. Up here, it is not a very pressing language to learn. In fact, if you have English and Spanish covered, you're pretty much set. French and German are the other major languages that are learned, mostly because the student enjoys their sound or is interested in the field. Of the students that took French in college, a considerable percentage took at least one semester of Italian (I don't remember the statistic, it was something in the 30%s, it was a 1998 statistic), with most (the percentage also in the 30s) taking 2 or more semesters.
It is understandable, if you took French you will see the similarities in Italian, and most recognize the cultural impact that country has had on the West. It's worth learning, even if just for the Opera.
But Portuguese is not really a language of culture, not much outside of South America anyway, so I would venture to say most people would only learn it just 'because they want to.' I am one of those people. I plan to take Italian and Portuguese after finishing my studies in French, or at least the first four years. Portuguese is not a useless a language as some people are making it sound, but it is not as important as others are portraying it.
LAA Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:12 pm GMT
««Italian is the language of the arts, of opera, classical music, fine cuisine. »»
««That doesn't mean that *Portuguese* is "the language of discovery*. That's like saying that I need to know Portuguese to navigate the ocean. Or, I need to know Portugese to open my way to all the new lands of Asia, Africa, and the Western Hemisphere. "I'm going on vacation to the Sudan." - "Oh wait, you can't! In order to open the path to exotic lands, you must first learn Portuguese! Otherwise, you can't make it out of the airport." »»
I suppose you need to know Italian to sing opera , play classical music, cook and to practice arts in general.
"Oh wait, you can't! In order to cook you must first learn Italian"
Are you dumb or what??
««it might be advantageous to learn Italian so you can learn from the masters in culinary arts.»»
Again are you dumb? Unless you are doing a course in Italian cuisine, in Italy why do you need to learn Italian to cook? Opera is sang in many languages, fine cuisine could French, and arts like painting, could be Dutch.
««There are a lot of words ...»»
Now you start divagating....
Again, I do not know how you come up with so much nonsense.
««Italian is the language of the arts, of opera, classical music, fine cuisine. »»
««That doesn't mean that *Portuguese* is "the language of discovery*. That's like saying that I need to know Portuguese to navigate the ocean. Or, I need to know Portugese to open my way to all the new lands of Asia, Africa, and the Western Hemisphere. "I'm going on vacation to the Sudan." - "Oh wait, you can't! In order to open the path to exotic lands, you must first learn Portuguese! Otherwise, you can't make it out of the airport." »»
I suppose you need to know Italian to sing opera , play classical music, cook and to practice arts in general.
"Oh wait, you can't! In order to cook you must first learn Italian"
Are you dumb or what??
««it might be advantageous to learn Italian so you can learn from the masters in culinary arts.»»
Again are you dumb? Unless you are doing a course in Italian cuisine, in Italy why do you need to learn Italian to cook? Opera is sang in many languages, fine cuisine could French, and arts like painting, could be Dutch.
««There are a lot of words ...»»
Now you start divagating....
Again, I do not know how you come up with so much nonsense.
Gringo, shut the hell up. Nobody cares about annoying hipcup sounding Portuguese.