What language is easiest for Spanish Speakers to understand?

Gringo   Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:19 pm GMT
Maria Olalia
««My Portuguese friends tell me that Portuguese has many more Arabic words than that - some of them have post-graduate degrees in the Portuguese language. Are you now going to go as far as suggest that they don't know what they are talking about?»»

What can I say? My dictionary says there are 912 Arabic words. Can I disagree with a dictionary? Maybe you can say from which dictionary they get their information. And how many more Arabic words they say there are.
Francisco   Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:38 pm GMT
Here is a fantastic website article for anyone wanting to know more about the very significant Arabic influence on all things Portuguese, particularly the Portuguese language, music, cuisine, architecture, and even knowledge of navigation.

http://saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200102/arabian.memories.in.portugal.htm

The writer, Habeeb Salloum is the author of five books and numerous articles on Canadian, Arab and Latin American history, travel and culinary arts. He is currently collaborating with his daughter Muna on an etymology of Arabic contributions to Spanish.

A Legacy In Language
Written by Habeeb Salloum

In Salloum's own words, "Portuguese is saturated with more than a thousand words of Arabic origin—more even than Spanish. Some are easy to spot: Portuguese words beginning with "al-" are almost all the result of assimilation of the Arabic prefix that means "the-" (and which in Spanish became "el-"). Similarly, Portuguese place names beginning with "Ode-" or "Odi-", such as Odeleite, Odelouca and Odiáxere, all stem from the Arabic wadi, meaning valley."

Notice what Mr. Salloum says, "Portuguese is saturated with more than a thousand words of Arabic origin—more even than Spanish."

Happy reading all!
Llorenna   Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:11 am GMT
more differences between Brazilian and Portuguese:

Brazilian: Registro de um terremoto em Cingapura ou no Vietnã
Portuguese: Registo dum terramoto em Singapura ou no Vietname

BR: Um átomo do cloro tem dezesseis prótons e dezesseis elétrons.
PT: Um átomo do cloro tem dezasseis protões e dezasseis eletrões.

BR: eles não viram vocês lá?
PT: não vos viram?

BR: anta, onça, sucuri, jibóia, treme-treme, jabuti
PT: tapir, jaguar, anaconda, boa, raia eléctrica, cágado

BR: tamanduás gostam de cupins
PT: papa-formigas gostam de térmitas.

BR: ratos (Rattus sp) e camundongos (Mus sp)
PT: ratazanas (Rattus sp) e ratos (Mus sp)

BR: suco de mamão
PT: sumo de papaia

BR: trem marrom
PT: comboio castanho

BR: Onde tem fumaça, tem fogo.
PT: Onde há fumo, há fogo.

BR: Câncer de esôfago
PT: Cancro do esófago

BR: fratura da escápula
PT: fractura da omóplata

BR: em dez minutos eu chego em casa
PT: daqui a dez minutos, chego a casa
Llorenna   Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:14 am GMT
''Me imagino que la comprension es mas dificil cuando los hablantes de un
idioma no son educados. ''

well, try being EDUCADO (=polite) and don't be ESTÚPIDO (=impolite).
Educado means polite in Brazilian Portuguese,
and impolite is said ESTÚPIDO or GROSSO.:

Ele foi muito estúpido/grosso comigo = He was very rude to me.
Llorenna   Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:18 am GMT
-Notice what Mr. Salloum says, "Portuguese is saturated with more than a thousand words of Arabic origin—more even than Spanish." -

Well, in Brazil, we avoid Arabian words.
We almost never use OXALÁ, we mostly use TOMARA QUE (for I wish).

ALFORRECA is said ÁGUA-VIVA
and ALFAZEMA is said LAVANDA
AZEITONA is sometimes used, but OLIVA is more modern today, only my grandmother uses AZEITONA :)
Maria Olalia   Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:00 pm GMT
I'll echo what Gringo said in an earlier post - needs no comments Llorenna.
Maria Olalia   Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:05 pm GMT
Just so you understand, I meant 'needs no comments ' in the negative sense. I will not reply to anymore of your preposterous comments.
Llorenna   Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:39 pm GMT
''I will not reply to anymore of your preposterous comments. ''

baita babaca
Gringo   Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:02 pm GMT
Francisco

««Here is a fantastic website article for anyone wanting to know more about the very significant Arabic influence on all things Portuguese, particularly the Portuguese language, music, cuisine, architecture, and even knowledge of navigation.»»

Don’t go exaggerating. It gives some information, but we have to correct some of it and “Give to Cesar what is from Cesar”.



««“Notice what Mr. Salloum says, "Portuguese is saturated with more than a thousand words of Arabic origin—more even than Spanish.»»

Yes, this is very good math, because Spanish has 4000 to 5000 Arabic words. I can assume he does not know the number of Arabic words there are in Portuguese or in Spanish.

The writer does not speak, and hardly understands Portuguese!!!



About fado and music:

««George Sawa, who holds a doctorate in historical Arab musicology from the University of Toronto, explains fado's links to Arab music..»»

Fado was heard for the first time in the XIX century. It can not been linked with the ancient Al-Andaluz or the Moors of that time. The influence can be African , (Lundum chorado) from Brazilian slaves or Medieval (cantigas de Amigo); and the musical instrument , the guitar, was British.
Fado was not known in the south of Portugal where the Arabs stood longer, not even in Spain. If it was of Arabic origin I am sure it would be sung in Andalucia (Spain) where the Arabs stood for a long time.

Fado was originated in Lisbon; it was not known in the rest of the country or anywhere else in the Iberian Peninsula before the XIX century.


http://www.attambur.com/Recolhas/fado1.htm




««Olshin adds that "There is also other Portuguese music which is clearly Arab-inspired. Listen, for example, to the modern flautist Rao Kao."»»

His name is Rão Kyao, not Rao kao. He plays jazz, and adds Indian, Arabic Chinese, Andalucian and Brazilian influences to his music. It is beautiful. But has nothing to do with the ancient Arabs.


http://www.uguru.net/pt/artists_raokyao.html


About Lisbon:

«« Alfama district, the heart of historic Portugal.»»

Uau!! This is a new one. The heart of historical Portugal is Guimarães as far as I know!! Alfama is the heart of Lisbon.


Alfama , today it is the oldest district of Lisbon, but when Lisbon was conquered everything was much smaller, even Lisbon.

The name Lisboa derived from the name that the Wisigoth gave: Ulishbona. The Arabs came much later and arabised the name to Lishbuna (Al-Ushbuna). “ Lisboa” was know since the time of the Phoenitians as Alis Ubbo.




««To this day, the common Portuguese verb mourejar means "to work like a Moor," and it implies unusual diligence and tenacity.»»


««old Portuguese cookbooks are filled with Arab recipes often simply called "Moorish lamb," "Moorish sausage," "Moorish hen," "Moorish fish," "Moorish broth"»»

Moor in Portuguese has two meanings :


The name “mouro”one derives from the Latin “mauru” and was given to the Muslim people in the Iberian peninsula.

The other meaning of “mouro” is much older and is probably of pre-Roman origin. The origin of the name “mouro/moiro” (moor) is probably Iberian or Celtic.


You will find tales about Moorish princesses and Moors that have pre- Roman origin. They were thought to be the magical people that built all ancient constructions, like dolmens , necropolis, standing stones or circle stones. The “mouras encantadas” and “mouros” lived not only in dolmens like the fairies of the “Domus de janas” in Sardinia but constructed them aswell , like the Basque's “Mairu” mythic people.

««Alfama, bustling beneath its hilltop Arab castle,»»

The walls and fortifications are known since the times of the Phoenicians. It is a castle of many builders.


«« Bermudo II, Christian king of León, who called the newly acquired lands Portucalia.»»

We know that the name the Suevi gave to their kingdom was Portu-Cale. So it was an old name.


««One Arab decorative tradition that has endured to become part of modern Portuguese identity is the love of vivacious ornamental tiles, called azulejo»»

««But it is the early, geometric styles of azulejos that show the clearest stylistic ties to the Arabs.»»

The decoration of floors and walls is not from Arabic but from Roman, the geometric is found in Conimbriga and other Roman ruins.



The first tiles or “azulejos” used to decorate walls were imported from Sevilha (Spain) in the XVI century, so it is not direct Arabic Influence , but Spanish tiles of origin.

“As primeiras utilizações conhecidas do azulejo em Portugal como revestimento monumental das paredes foram realizadas com azulejos hispano-mouriscos, importados de Sevilha cerca de 1503.”


http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/CVC/azulejos/tradisl.html

««And crowning all these towns is Silves, known as Shalb when it was the Arab capital of Algarve,»»

Silves was known as Cilpis by the Romans. The Algarve was known as Vandalácia by the Wisigoths and "al-Gharb al-Ândalus" by the Arabs.


Francisco:
I could go on correcting more but there are thousands of stuff written on the net, and anyone posts whatever they like.

The Arab influence is well known, I only think that some of you people want to make it look much bigger that what it was. If the Arabs had made in “Portugal” the center of their power instead of “Spain” maybe the influence would have been bigger than what it really was.

The thing is that The Arabs did not care much about the lands in the west.
Francisco   Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:18 pm GMT
You obviously have a lot of time on your hands Gringo. Sooo, the so called "corrections" you have made are the "infallible truth"?? If I was so inclined, I could refute everything you said, but thankfully I have other more important things to spend my limited time on. And just as a reminder...you have posted material taken directly from the internet many times in the past, so do not be so pompous and righteous, and say that "anyone posts whatever they like." Your long winded posts may impress the pants off of some in this forum, but let me assure you that it's not working with me. You would probably have more credibility if your posts were shorter, becuase it looks like you are trying way too hard :-) In any case, you do not have to be a speaker of any language, or a native of any country to know its history. There are many people out there who are ignorant of the histories of their own countries.
Francisco   Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:37 pm GMT
<<The thing is that The Arabs did not care much about the lands in the west.>>

Let's see....if the Christian reconquest of Iberia had not taken place, then the Moors would not, by choice, have stayed in Iberia longer, right? Wrong. I mean, they did hang around Portugal for approx. 500 years and Spain for approx. 800 years. This fact alone proves that the Moors were never in any real hurry to leave Iberia. They were driven out of Iberia en masse as a result of religious intolerance. At any rate, the persecutions of non-Christians in Iberia leading up to the inquisition would have caused them to leave eventually.
Gringo   Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:38 pm GMT
Francisco
««You obviously have a lot of time on your hands Gringo. »»

No, I already know the answer. The history is always the same.


««Sooo, the so called "corrections" you have made are the "infallible truth"??»»

That only you can find out. Everybody has their own truth.


««.you have posted material taken directly from the internet many times in the past, so do not be so pompous and righteous, and say that "anyone posts whatever they like."»»

When I take from the net I write the source so you know it is from the net like you did. And I was not referring to you when I said "anyone posts whatever they like.". Don’t be so self centered I was not talking about you.

««You would probably have more credibility if your posts were shorter, becuase it looks like you are trying way too hard »»

I would think you would comment on punctuation missing or typing mistakes. But posts too big? Come on. I am having fun.

««Your long winded posts may impress the pants off of some in this forum, but let me assure you that it's not working with me.»»

Uau. This was deep :o). Good, it is boring when people agree with everything.

««In any case, you do not have to be a speaker of any language, or a native of any country to know its history.»»

No, but in the case of the writer of the article he was exaggerating because he wanted to write about the influence that the Arabs had in other cultures.

««This fact alone proves that the Moors were never in any real hurry to leave Iberia.»»

They were conquered; they did not leave on their free will. They would have never left if there was not the reconquista.

If you are talking about the enchanted moors they are still around. You just have to take care not to be enchanted by one, or you can end up living inside a stone.
Francisco   Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:35 pm GMT
<<They were conquered; they did not leave on their free will. They would have never left if there was not the reconquista.>> This is what I said in my last post. Well, at least we seem to agree on this point, I think. Or did you just simply paraphrase what I said?

Anyway, what I don't understand is why you made the statement, "The Arabs did not care much about the lands in the west." This is simply not true - they loved Iberia. If not for the Christian reconquest, they probably would have stayed.
Gringo   Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:51 pm GMT
««This is what I said in my last post. Well, at least we seem to agree on this point, I think. Or did you just simply paraphrase what I said?»»

I was just agreeing with you.

««Anyway, what I don't understand is why you made the statement, "The Arabs did not care much about the lands in the west." This is simply not true - they loved Iberia.»»

I was referring to The West of Al-Andalus, the Al'Garb Al'Andalus or most of today Portugal, not to the entire Al-Andalus.

Although Lisbon was an important town, the place you can notice some Arabic influence is really in the Algarve and because it was longer under Arabic rule. That is because the centers of political power and culture were in what is now Spain.


««If not for the Christian reconquest, they probably would have stayed»»

Sure, but you know that during the Taifa period there were several Slavic kingdoms in Hispania: the Régulos Eslavos. The Saqaliba were for a long time the slaves until they became powerful and had their own kingdoms in the Al-Andalus. They were … “Slavic Arabs”.
Guest   Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:20 pm GMT
The Catalan language sounds remarkably similar to Portuguese, and some of its vocabulary is identical such as, 'bon dia = good day (Port. bom dia)' & 'ajuda = help' as in Portuguese. But then just as quickly, the Catalan vocabulary changes dramatically i.e., 'si us plau = please' instead of 'por favor' as in Portuguese & Spanish, and totally screws up the intelligibilty level between Catalan, Portuguese and Spanish. The ethnologue of languages reports that Catalan has an 85% lexical similarity with Portuguese and Spanish, 87% with Italian, a little higher with French, and perhaps 95% intelligibility with Valencian, which is considered a dialect and not necessarily a language proper. But of all the major Romance languages, Portuguese and Spanish are still the closest with an 89% level of intelligibilty despite their different accents. This is largely because they share a very close vocabulary, gammar and syntax, which facilitates the high degree of intelligibilty.