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Romanian a MADE up language
EHRE
scriptolatin préclassique <honos — honosis>
scriptolatin classique <honor — honosis>
ancien français <anors — anor>, <enors — enor>, <honeurs — honeur>, <honneurs — honneur>, <honnours — honnour>, <honors — honor>, <honours — honour>, <onneurs — onneur>, <onors — onor>, <onnours — onnour>, <ouneurs — ouneur>
ancien français d’outre-Manche <ennor>, <enour>, <honor>, <honour>, <honur>, <oner>, <oneur>, <oneure>, <onor>, <onour>, <onur>, <unor>
français <honneur> [on9R] [On9R]
castillan <honor>
catalan <honor>
gascon <aunor> [aU_^nu]
italien <onore>
occitan <honor>, <onor>
piedmontais <onor>
poitevin saintongeais <ouneùr> <ounour>
roumain <onoare>
BAUM
scriptolatin préclassique <arbos — arbosis>
scriptolatin classique <arbos — arboris>
ancien français <abres — abre>, <albres — albre>, <arbes — arbe>, <arbres — arbre>, <aubres — aubre>
ancien français d’outre-Manche <arber>, <arbor>, <arboree>, <arbre>, <arbree>, <arbrer>
français <arbre> [aRbR] [aRbR@]
castillan <árbol>
catalan <arbre>
gascon <arbe>
italien <albero>
occitan <arbre>
piedmontais <arbra>, <erbo>
poitevin saintongeais <abre>
roumain <copac> <smochin>
MAUER
scriptolatin classique <murus — muri>
ancien français <murs — mur>
ancien français d’outre-Manche <meur>, <moer>, <moeur>, <more>, <mour>, <mur>, <mure>
français <mur> [myR]
castillan <muro>
catalan <mur>
gascon <mur>
italien <muro>
occitan <mur>
piedmontais <mur>
poitevin saintongeais <mur>
roumain <?>
WAND
scriptolatin classique <paries — parietis>
ancien français <parey — parey>, <paroi — paroi>, <paroit — paroit>, <paroiz — paroiz>
ancien français d’outre-Manche <parai>, <paraie>, <paré>, <pared>, <paree>, <parei>, <pareie>, <pareit>, <parere>, <paret>, <paretz>, <parié>, <pariet>, <paroi>, <paroit>, <parrei>, <parroie>, <pereie>,
français <paroi> [paRwa]
castillan <pared>
catalan <paret>
gascon <paret>
italien <parete>
occitan <paret>
piedmontais <muraja>
poitevin saintongeais <?>
roumain <perete>
HIMMEL
scriptolatin classique <cælum — cæli>
ancien français <chiels — chiel>, <chieus — chiel>, <chieux — chiel>, <chieuz — chiel>, <ciaus —ciel>, <ciels — ciel>, <cielx — ciel>, <cielz — ciel>, <cielz — ciel>, etc
ancien français d’outre-Manche <ceel>, <ceil>, <cel>, <cele>, <ceuls>, <ciel>, <chille>, <seel>
français <ciel> [sjEl]
castillan <cielo>
catalan <cel>
gascon <cél>, <cèu>
italien <cielo>
occitan <cèl>
piedmontais <cel>
poitevin saintongeais <ciàu>
roumain <cer>
ROSE
scriptolatin classique <rosa — rosæ>
ancien français <rose — rose>, <roze— roze>
ancien français d’outre-Manche <roos>, <rose>
français <rose> [ROz] [Roz]
castillan <rosa>
catalan <rosa>
gascon <arròsa>, <ròsa>
italien <rosa>
occitan <ròsa>
piedmontais <reusa>
poitevin saintongeais <rouse>
roumain <trandafir>
SCHNABEL
scriptolatin classique <rostrum — rostri>
scriptolatin postclassique <beccus — becci>
ancien français <becs — bec>, <becz— bec>, <becqs — becq>, <beqs — beq>
ancien français d’outre-Manche <bec>, <beek>, <bek>, <beke>
français <bec> [bEk]
castillan <pico>
catalan <bec>
gascon <arròsa>, <ròsa>
italien <becco>
occitan <bèc>
piedmontais <bech>, <bèch>, <boch>
poitevin saintongeais <béc>
roumain <cioc>, <pintem>
SCHWERT
scriptolatin classique <spatha — spathæ>
ancien français <epee — epee>, <epée — epée>, <espee — espee>, <espée — espée>
ancien français d’outre-Manche <aspee>, <epeie>, <eppee>, <espé>, <espee>, <espei>, <espeie>, <espeyus>, <espez>, <espie>, <espiz>, <espyie>, <estpeye>, <spee>, <spethe>
français <épée> [epe]
castillan <espada>
catalan <espasa>
gascon <espada>, <espasa>
italien <spada>
occitan <espasa>
piedmontais <spa>
poitevin saintongeais <épàie>
roumain <sabie>, < spadă>
Mais ce ne sont là que quleques mots. Qui ne prouvent rien.
ERRATUM : scriptolatin classique <honor — honoris>
HONOR"
Old latin; Honos/honoris
Classical latin; Honor
Italian; Onore
Spanish; Honor
Romanian; onoare
In fact "onoare" is a relatively new loanword. The old Romanian term is "cinste", of Slavic origin, which is still the most widely used term.
TREE"
Classical latin; arbor
Spanish; arbol
Italian; albero
Romanian; smochin/copac
"Smochin" refers to a specific tree, that is the "fig-tree". The word must have been borrowed from Bulgarian, since the fig-tree is not grown in Romania (no more than in Scotland, I mean).
However, Romania has kept two terms roughly naming the same reality:
"copac" coming from the Thraco-Dacian substratum and "pom" coming from Latin; Dialectally (Western Transylvania, at least) it has also preserved "lemn" (<Lat. "lignum") with the meaning of "tree" too, not onlu of "wood" as elsewhere (Dusu-m-am la padure si-am taiet tri lemne).
"WALL"
Classical latin; Murum
Spanish; muro/pared
Italian; muro/parete
Romanian; perete (<Lat. parietem)
Romanian has also kept "mur" and "a murui" (to plaster with clay), but only regionally (Western Transylvania, which is my home, too).
A more usual term is the Slavic word "zid" and "a zidi".
"ROSE"
Classical latin; rosa
Italian; rosa
Spanish; rosa
Romanian; trandafir
Regionally (Western Transylvania, at least) Romanian doesn't use the Neo-Greek loanword "trandafir", but the Latin "rug" or "ruguts"(<Lat. rubus).
"BEAK"
Classical latin; rostrum
Italian; becco
Spanish; rostro/pico
Romanian; cioc/pinten
"Pinten" means "spur" in Romanian, not "beak".
Romanian has, however, kept the Latin "rostrum" (Rom."rost") giving it a new more abstract meaning. "Rost" means "meaning", "signification", "sense", "purpose". It also appears in many idiomatic expressions, such as "fara rost" (useless, vain), "a stii pe de rost" (to know by heart) etc.
For "beak" Romanian has, besides "cioc", "clonts", a Bulgarian/old Slavic loanword.
And "gladiola" refers, in Romanian, to the flower known by the name of "Gladiolum". It is a recent loanword.
I know about three terms for "sword": sabie (from Bulgarian), spada (from Greek) and palosh (from Hungarian). They are not entirely synonimous, however.
I do not understand why you guys still dipute over romanian and its "slavic origins". First of all this is wrong. Romanian has no slavic origins in its syntax. Secondly just because Romanian was written in a cyrilic script in its earlier form does not make it any less Latin (S.P.Q.R? what does that have to do with anything?). Romanian developed in a region that was surrounded by slavic countries. The Romanian church was preaching in bulgarian slavic during the 13th to 18th century, so naturally this had a huge effect on the languages lexicality but little on its syntax. Read my earlier post (OCTAVIAN) to find out why. Romanian was and remains of latin orgins. This can also be proven by the first letter written in the 15th century. Though written in cyrilic, 68 percent of the words found in the letter derive from latin and the grammar heavely resembled latin. Furthermore I do not know why Romanian survived as a latin language in that region this is left for debate. But this is fact, Romanian was a latin language from the moment it became the first romance language to the moment of the "national awakening" and there after.
I would also like to add that I am not pro-romanian or pro-national. I am simply pro-knowledge. My statements are not generated by national pride or anything regarding this because believe me I do not care if Romanians are Romans, Dacians or Slavs. This is a subject of debate just as any regarding ethnicity. to S.P.Q.R, Octavian and Sorin are to different people read the posts and see were I stand compared to him.
As to the name of this topic "Romanian a made up language" I would expand this characterisation to any other language in its "standard" form. Every "standard" form of a language is highly eclectic and so "made up".
S.P.Q.R
Wasn't the language that failed to preserve latin syntax system?
really? Thats why romanian preserved the neuter gender in its syntax which the other romance languages failed to do right?
spare me the 1930's Mussolini propoganda with your so called "true" linguists such as Emilio Segre.
If you dont know anything about Romanian, or cant even speak it, dont post your rubish.
And why do you call yourself S.P.Q.R? you think you're Roman or something? like I said, spare me Mussolini's propoganda.augustin717 Fri
Mar 17, 2006 5:34 pm GMT
As to the name of this topic "Romanian a made up language" I would expand this characterisation to any other language in its "standard" form. Every "standard" form of a language is highly eclectic and so "made up".
agreed.
Some old Latin words only regionally (Western Transylvania) preserved in Daco-Romanian:
pad'estru (lame and then, "lacking smth) (d' signifies palatalization)<Lat. pedester.
branca (hand) used in the bihor region instead of "mana" (<Lat. branca).
vintrish (crawling, creeping) <Lat. venter
a custa (to live and, at the same time, to cause to live)<Lat. constare:"Zo te custe" (May God keep you).
jun'e (youngster)<Lat.iuvenem, instead of the mor common "tanar"(<Lat. tener).
prunc (used with the sense of "son")<Lat. "puerunculus".
To Greg:
I agree with luis zalot for the truth he said,nor for his latin, infact i underlined his latin mistake.
To octavian:
Syntax is not morphology dear octavian,Tell me why some rules existed in latin language are still preserved in western romances while romanian substitued them with slavic ones? Ex: Consecutio modorum, temporum, subjunctive of subordination absolute constructs with participles.......
Segre, Migliorini, Bruni, and the other i cited are Higly regarded linguists.In fact italian luguists asserted that romanian was a latin lòanguage, so thank them instead of criticise them
I) know romanian so that's why i talk but what do you know about italian? Nothing!
The Creed in Romanian
I've chosen it because there are no neologisms in it:
Crezul
Cred într-unul Dumnezeu, Tatal Atottiitorul, Facatorul cerului si al pamântului, vazutelor tuturor si nevazutelor.
Si într-unul Domn Iisus Hristor, Fiul lui Dumnezeu, Unul-Nascut, Care din Tatal S-a nascut mai înainte de toti vecii. Lumina din Lumina, Dumnezeu adevarat din Dumnezeu adevarat, Nascut, nu facut; Cel de o fiinta cu Tatal, prin Care toate s-au facut.
Care pentru noi oamenii si pentru a noastra mîntuire S-a pogorît din ceruri si S-a întrupat de la Duhul Sfînt din Maria fecioara si s-a facut om.
Si S-a rastignit pentru noi în zilele lui Pontiu Pilat si a patimit si S-a îngropat.
Si a înviat a treia zi, dupa Scripturi.
Si S-a înaltat la ceruri si sade de-a dreapta Tatalui.
Si iarasi sa vina cu slava, sa judece vii si mortii, a Carui împaratie nu va avea sfîrsit.
Si întru Duhul Sfînt, Domnul de viata Facatorul, Care de la Tatal purcede, cel ce împreuna cu Tatal si cu Fiul este închinat si slavit, Care a grait prin prooroci.
Într-una sfânta, soborniceasca si apostoleasca Biserica.
Marturisesc un Botez, întru iertarea pacatelor.
Astept învierea mortilor.
Si viata veacului ce va sa vie.
Amin!
Now I will pick up the Slavic/Slavonic, Greek and Hungarian words, all the remaining words having been inherited from Latin.
1.Tatal "Father" (possibly Slavic)
2.vecii ("ages")<Sl. veku
3.mantuire ("salvation") comes from Hungarian "menteni", but possibly a Slavic loan word in Hungarian.
4.pogorat (descended)
5.intrupat (became incarnate)<Sl. trup
5.Duhul (Spirit)<Sl.duhu
6.sfant (holy)<Sl.sviati
7.rastignit (was crucified)<sl.rastegnonti
8.patimit (suffered)<Ngr."pathima"
9.ingropat (was buried)-c.f. Alb. "grope", a substratum word probably.
10."slava" and "slavit" (glory; glorified)<Sl. "slava"
11.grait (spoke)<Scr. grajati
12.prooroci (prophets)<Sl.proroku
13."soborniceasca" (catholic)<Sl.suboru
14.marturisesc<Sl.marturisati (but, ultimately, from Greek)
augustin717; thanks for the clarifying....it seems to me "romanian" has various dialects and there are hardly "any" stable words for things as you mentioned...like;
"onoare" is a relatively new loanword. The old Romanian term is "cinste", of Slavic origin, which is still the most widely used term."
And, also the fact "romanian" has a lot of mis-conceptions of words;
"Romanian has also kept "mur" and "a murui" (to plaster with clay), but only regionally (Western Transylvania, which is my home, too).
A more usual term is the Slavic word "zid" and "a zidi". "
"Romanian has, however, kept the Latin "rostrum" (Rom."rost") giving it a new more abstract meaning. "Rost" means "meaning", "signification", "sense", "purpose". It also appears in many idiomatic expressions, such as "fara rost" (useless, vain), "a stii pe de rost" (to know by heart) etc.
For "beak" Romanian has, besides "cioc", "clonts", a Bulgarian/old Slavic"
etc.
Which the rest of the romance languages conversed it.
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about "old latin"
I've been to various websites and "university" sections about words in "old latin" and they have almost nothing about words in "OLD LATIN." Please site some sites or reference an book or something, please.
the only word i've found was "honos" which means "honor" in classical
ONE SHOULD NOT DISMISSED THAT "SPANISH & ITALIAN" COULD'VE INHERITED "om-os" from Old Latin or REFERENCE IT or WAS IT AN NATURAL "phenomenon?" Thus, "um-us" (classical latin) is evolved from "om-os." (old latin)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Latin
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augustin717; excuse my romanian, but I reference it from an "dictionary" probably the only one online, but here's the link
http://www.castingsnet.com/dictionaries/ (it's temporarily down)
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S.P.Q.R; thanks, excuse my latin. "Intramus nos" instead "nobis intramus" sounds similar to "nois intramus" (sardianian) or "nosotros entramus" (spanish) and "noi entriamo" (italian)
What do you think about "old latin's -om/os?" Could have spanish & Italian INHERITED it or was it an natural phenomenon?
Luis Zalot,
Yeah, perhaps that on line dictionary is not the most reliable source in determining to what extent Romanian is a Romance language and to what extent it is not.
They don't give you there any diachronic survey of the Romanian vocabulary. What you find there is purely synchronic Standard Romanian, and not even always so.
Romanian as it is spoken across the Romanian territory and on the territories of its neighbouring countries (Hungary, Serbia, Ukraine and Moldova) is a single mutually comprehensible dialect, with four local subdialects: Moldavian (spoken in the North-Eastern part of the country), Wallachian (or Muntenian which forms the basis of what Standard Romanian is, spoken in the South of the country), Banatzean (South-Western Romania) and Crishan (Western, North-Western Romania; it derives its name from the three rivers called "Crishuri").
I can suggest you a good grammar book, it is called urbis et orbis written by Tantucci, it has got diachronic studies on latin grammar the developement of these in italian, the only probelm, is in italian and ti is a relatively old book. (1989)
The Om os question:
This is rather tricky because phonologically Om os are equivalent to um us,
in fact during 200bc latin had a shift of graphemes,from then to on ai was written ae.
oi oe, O long was replaced with U and so on.
Italian and spanish could heve both inerithed them and both developed them with the process of palatalization and fricativization of consonat and the corresponding reducing of the wovel quantity.
Excuse me for spelling errors.
Spanish, also conversed "some" words from "Old-latin" which retain more of it's look and pronunciation.>>>>
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augustin717 wrote;
Some old Latin words only regionally (Western Transylvania) preserved in Daco-Romanian:
pad'estru (lame and then, "lacking smth) (d' signifies palatalization)
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I wrote;
[Early 18th century. Directly or via French pédestre from Latin -pedester- “going on foot,” from pes “foot.”]
Spanish; Pedestre (on foot; pedestrian).
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augustin717;
branca (hand) used in the bihor region instead of "mana" (<Lat. branca).
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I wrote;
[13th century. Via French branche from late Latin -branca- “paw,” possibly of Celtic origin. The underlying meaning was “limb.”]
Spanish; pata (paw, from french; [13th century. Via Old French powe , poue , poe from, ultimately, the prehistoric Germanic language.]
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augustin717;
vintrish (crawling, creeping) <Lat. venter
[Mid-16th century. Directly or via law French and French ventre from Latin -venter- “belly.”]
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I wrote;
Spanish; -estomogo- (stomach) {ultimately, Greek stomakhos “throat, gullet,” from stoma “mouth.”}
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augustin717;
a custa (to live and, at the same time, to cause to live
"Zo te custe" (May God keep you).
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I wrote;
Latin; -constare- “to stand together,” from stare “to stand”
SPANISH-constar; {{{de be clear from, be evident from; consist of; constar en be on record in; constar por be shown by; hacer constar record; certify; reveal that.}}}
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augustin717;
jun'e (youngster-iuvenem-, instead of the more common
"tanar"(<Lat. tener
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I wrote;
-Iuvenem- (old latin) juvenilis/juvenis (classical latin)
Spanish;
juventud (feminine youth; young people. )
joven (young, youthfull etc.)
juvenil (young; youthful; obra early)
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augustin717;
prunc; used with the sense of "son"
Lat. -puerunculus-
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Old latin;-puerunculus-
Spanish;
pueril (childish)
puerilidad (feminine puerility, childishness.)
So, it's evident. Spanish has Old Latin aswell, along with greek/german.
S.P.Q.R ; "urbis et orbis written by Tantucci" thanks.
"Italian and spanish could have both inherited them and both developed them with the process of palatalization and fricativization of consonat and the corresponding reducing of the wovel quantity."
Thanks, it's odd how Italian & Spanish have this along with the other minor romance languages and portuguese as well. So that would 'mean' in a SENSE;
Italian/spanish/portuguese etc...from "old latin" "om/os"
while,
Romanian/sardianian/sicilian/asturian from "classical latin "um/us"
"Om os are equivalent to um us." THEY do sound similar and are ALMOST pronounced the same.
S.P.Q.R (do you know any "old latin?" and if so could you place some pharses or words, again... thanks.)
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