The thing, Damian, is that it's not like English is just going to disappear off the face of the Earth one day. Rather, it's that various dialects, at primarily the spoken language, will slowly (but surely) diverge over time (we're talking about a matter of centuries here), until crossintelligibility ends up dropping quite considerably in the end. It's not that English would have disappeared as much as it would have fragmented, in speech. Even then, many differences are likely to be inapparent in writing, and in particular formal writing, and are likely to only show up when one actually listens to others' speech, or tries to speak with others' who don't speak one's own dialect.
Will English die out?
That's a relief TRAVIS..thanks. I can sleep peacefully in my bed now and not worry about learning another Language when I'm an old crumbly on a zimmer frame.
<Damian thinks SANDER has got hold of the wrong end of the stick! :-)>
<Damian thinks SANDER has got hold of the wrong end of the stick! :-)>
Please stop calling it English English! It's doing my head in! It's American English and BRITISH English! Thank you.
If dialects are diverging, which I don't dispute, they are not diverging in such a way that they are in any danger of becoming unintelligible. And with other factors, social, political, and economical -- and yes, the media -- thrown in, I think it would be difficult to accurately extrapolate, just based on current rates of divergence, what the future will hold for English. There are too many variables, and their respective influences fluctuate quite a bit.
I apolgise for my outburst. I meant to say: Please don't call our Brit language English English. Some of us do call ourselves English when also our language English but that's not the way it should be put. It makes Brits look more superior over the one language that used through different languages all over the world and that's not fair to them. So that's why we call it British English and why you should use it too. Besides think of the other English speaking countries. Hindi English, American english.
The reason why I specifically use the term *English* English is that I am referring to the spoken language, and English English is the English spoken natively in England proper, and *not* Scotland or Wales. While many say "British English", the matter is that they are practically always referring to English English, even though the name indicates that such is referring to Great Britain as a whole, even though English English is only spoken throughout a section of such. Hence, the term "British English" should only be used in reference to the written language, which does not really vary throughout the UK, whereas if one is referring to spoken forms, one should not use such a term, and rather one should specifically specify "English English", "Scottish English", or "Welsh English".
As for the term "American English", I actually do not like this term much at all, especially when it is used in reference to the spoken language, for different reasons. The problem with this term is that it implies that "American English" is a whole separate branch within English, especially when it is juxtaposed with English English or "British English", when it is really just an arbitrary section defined by political bordaries of a dialect continuum that covers practically all of English-speaking North America (except possibly the English spoken in Atlantic Canada, which could be considered a separate dialect group). Furthermore, along much of the border between the US and Canada, there is little distinction at all between the English spoken in the US and that spoken in Canada, with the primary exception being that there is a significant dialect split between the English spoken in Detroit, Michigan and that spoken in Windsor, Ontario. Likewise, many northern US English dialects actually have supposedly "Canadian" phonological features, in particular Canadian Raising, which is present in part in the dialect spoken here in southern Wisconsin, and if anything Canadian Raising seems to be spreading throughout northern US English dialects. Hence, one cannot really consider there to be any real significant dialect separation between specifically "American" and specifically "Canadian" English, but rather one must consider there to be a single dialect continuum stretching throughout practically all of English-speaking North America, Honduras and possibly Atlantic Canada notwithstanding. Therefore, it is best to simply make reference to "North American English", rather than referring at all to "American English" or "Canadian English".
As for the term "American English", I actually do not like this term much at all, especially when it is used in reference to the spoken language, for different reasons. The problem with this term is that it implies that "American English" is a whole separate branch within English, especially when it is juxtaposed with English English or "British English", when it is really just an arbitrary section defined by political bordaries of a dialect continuum that covers practically all of English-speaking North America (except possibly the English spoken in Atlantic Canada, which could be considered a separate dialect group). Furthermore, along much of the border between the US and Canada, there is little distinction at all between the English spoken in the US and that spoken in Canada, with the primary exception being that there is a significant dialect split between the English spoken in Detroit, Michigan and that spoken in Windsor, Ontario. Likewise, many northern US English dialects actually have supposedly "Canadian" phonological features, in particular Canadian Raising, which is present in part in the dialect spoken here in southern Wisconsin, and if anything Canadian Raising seems to be spreading throughout northern US English dialects. Hence, one cannot really consider there to be any real significant dialect separation between specifically "American" and specifically "Canadian" English, but rather one must consider there to be a single dialect continuum stretching throughout practically all of English-speaking North America, Honduras and possibly Atlantic Canada notwithstanding. Therefore, it is best to simply make reference to "North American English", rather than referring at all to "American English" or "Canadian English".
Travis, I agree absolutely. Here in Germany, where I teach English, the vast majority of my students make a clear distinction between 'British' and 'American' English, as though they were 2 different languages (and also as if the US and Britain were the only English-speaking countries in the world!) Almost all Germans (at least the ones I've met, and I've met thousands) firmly believe that 'British English' is the 'correct' version, and that there's something 'wrong' or inadequate about American English. They always say 'we want to learn British English!' I try to throw in a few Americanisms now and then...they'll never know...;)
I think that all versions of English are legitimate and one should not be regarded as "better" than any other. No accent or style is superior than any other. If a Language is widely scattered all over the world, as is English, then all the "separated Englishes" are bound to evolve and develop in different way.
If you are a learner of English then I believe it's your free choice to select which version you wish to adopt in terms of spelling, format, accent etc.
If most of CANDY'S students prefer to follow the British pattern for the reasons she said they gave, or for whatever other reason, then that is their prerogative. If some wish to adopt Americanisms, or to adopt an American accent, then that's fine as well I reckon. It's good that Candy is being democratic and introducing Americanisms, whether or not the students are aware of it.
Learning British English is fine but the most influential English speaking world superpower IS the USA and, even if some people don't like it, American English is unavoidably part of our lives whatever our local accent. I reckon it's impossible to go through a normal day without using Americanisms....just think about it.
I like TRAVIS'S detailed post and I agree with most of what he says. Using the terms *English English* *British English* *American English* and all the other *Englishes* are only meaningful if you want to identify a country as a whole.
In the USA the term *American English* is useless really because someone from Vermont would not sound anything like a person from Texas. Likewise, it's the same situation here in the UK with it's even more clearly defined regions which include separate countries within a country.
I was watching TV news early this morning and saw reports of the bad flooding in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and elsewhere on thwe Continent. Local people were being interviewed and without exception their English was flawless. The accents to me all sounded the same - distinctively German with no discernable British or American influence...it was just English in the traditional German accent. I daresay a person from Bern, Switzerland would have a different accent from someone in Munich (Muenchen) but I wouldn't be able to tell any difference.
If you are a learner of English then I believe it's your free choice to select which version you wish to adopt in terms of spelling, format, accent etc.
If most of CANDY'S students prefer to follow the British pattern for the reasons she said they gave, or for whatever other reason, then that is their prerogative. If some wish to adopt Americanisms, or to adopt an American accent, then that's fine as well I reckon. It's good that Candy is being democratic and introducing Americanisms, whether or not the students are aware of it.
Learning British English is fine but the most influential English speaking world superpower IS the USA and, even if some people don't like it, American English is unavoidably part of our lives whatever our local accent. I reckon it's impossible to go through a normal day without using Americanisms....just think about it.
I like TRAVIS'S detailed post and I agree with most of what he says. Using the terms *English English* *British English* *American English* and all the other *Englishes* are only meaningful if you want to identify a country as a whole.
In the USA the term *American English* is useless really because someone from Vermont would not sound anything like a person from Texas. Likewise, it's the same situation here in the UK with it's even more clearly defined regions which include separate countries within a country.
I was watching TV news early this morning and saw reports of the bad flooding in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and elsewhere on thwe Continent. Local people were being interviewed and without exception their English was flawless. The accents to me all sounded the same - distinctively German with no discernable British or American influence...it was just English in the traditional German accent. I daresay a person from Bern, Switzerland would have a different accent from someone in Munich (Muenchen) but I wouldn't be able to tell any difference.
Found them!!
http://www.avolites.org.uk/jokes/metaphors.htm
These are supposed to be metaphors from actual GCSE essays:
Her face was a perfect oval, like a circle that had its two other sides gently compressed by a Thigh Master.
His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like underpants in a tumble dryer.
She caught your eye like one of those pointy hook latches that used to dangle from doors and would fly up whenever you banged the door open again.
The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling ball wouldn't.
McMurphy fell 12 stories, hitting the pavement like a paper bag filled with vegetable soup.
Her hair glistened in the rain like nose hair after a sneeze.
Her eyes were like two brown circles with big black dots in the centre
Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever.
He was as tall as a six-foot-three-inch tree.
The hailstones leaped from the pavement, just like maggots when you fry them in hot grease.
Long separated by cruel fate, the star-crossed lovers raced across the grassy field toward each other like two freight trains, one having left York at 6:36 p.m. travelling at 55 mph, the other from Peterborough at 4:19p.m. at a speed of 35 mph.
The politician was gone but unnoticed, like the full stop after the Dr. on a Dr Pepper can.
John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who had also never met.
The thunder was ominous sounding, much like the sound of a thin sheet of metal being shaken backstage during the storm scene in a play.
The red brick wall was the colour of a brick-red crayon.
Even in his last years, Granddad had a mind like a steel trap, only one that had been left out so long it had rusted shut.
The door had been forced, as forced as the dialogue during the interview portion of Family Fortunes.
Shots rang out, as shots are wont to do.
The plan was simple, like my brother Phil. But unlike Phil, this plan just might work.
The young fighter had a hungry look, the kind you get from not eating for a while.
Oh, Jason, take me!" she panted, her breasts heaving like a student on 31p-a-pint night.
He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck either, but a real duck that was actually lame. Maybe from stepping on a land mine or something.
Her artistic sense was exquisitely refined, like someone who can tell butter from "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter."
She had a deep, throaty, genuine laugh, like that sound a dog makes
just before it throws up.
It came down the stairs looking very much like something no one had
ever seen before.
The knife was as sharp as the tone used by Glenda Jackson MP in her first several points of parliamentary procedure made to Robin Cook MP, Leader of the House of Commons, in the House Judiciary Committee hearings on the suspension of Keith Vaz MP.
The ballerina rose gracefully en pointe and extended one slender leg behind her, like a dog at a lamppost.
The revelation that his marriage of 30 years had disintegrated because of his wife's infidelity came as a rude shock, like a surcharge at a formerly surcharge-free cashpoint.
The dandelion swayed in the gentle breeze like an oscillating electric fan set on medium.
It was a working class tradition, like fathers chasing kids around with their power tools.
He was deeply in love. When she spoke, he thought he heard bells, as
if she were a dustcart reversing.
She was as easy as the Daily Star crossword.
She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room-temperature British beef.
She walked into my office like a centipede with 98 missing legs.
Her voice had that tense, grating quality, like a first-generation thermal paper fax machine that needed a band tightened.
It hurt the way your tongue hurts after you accidentally staple it to the wall.
http://www.avolites.org.uk/jokes/metaphors.htm
These are supposed to be metaphors from actual GCSE essays:
Her face was a perfect oval, like a circle that had its two other sides gently compressed by a Thigh Master.
His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like underpants in a tumble dryer.
She caught your eye like one of those pointy hook latches that used to dangle from doors and would fly up whenever you banged the door open again.
The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling ball wouldn't.
McMurphy fell 12 stories, hitting the pavement like a paper bag filled with vegetable soup.
Her hair glistened in the rain like nose hair after a sneeze.
Her eyes were like two brown circles with big black dots in the centre
Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever.
He was as tall as a six-foot-three-inch tree.
The hailstones leaped from the pavement, just like maggots when you fry them in hot grease.
Long separated by cruel fate, the star-crossed lovers raced across the grassy field toward each other like two freight trains, one having left York at 6:36 p.m. travelling at 55 mph, the other from Peterborough at 4:19p.m. at a speed of 35 mph.
The politician was gone but unnoticed, like the full stop after the Dr. on a Dr Pepper can.
John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who had also never met.
The thunder was ominous sounding, much like the sound of a thin sheet of metal being shaken backstage during the storm scene in a play.
The red brick wall was the colour of a brick-red crayon.
Even in his last years, Granddad had a mind like a steel trap, only one that had been left out so long it had rusted shut.
The door had been forced, as forced as the dialogue during the interview portion of Family Fortunes.
Shots rang out, as shots are wont to do.
The plan was simple, like my brother Phil. But unlike Phil, this plan just might work.
The young fighter had a hungry look, the kind you get from not eating for a while.
Oh, Jason, take me!" she panted, her breasts heaving like a student on 31p-a-pint night.
He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck either, but a real duck that was actually lame. Maybe from stepping on a land mine or something.
Her artistic sense was exquisitely refined, like someone who can tell butter from "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter."
She had a deep, throaty, genuine laugh, like that sound a dog makes
just before it throws up.
It came down the stairs looking very much like something no one had
ever seen before.
The knife was as sharp as the tone used by Glenda Jackson MP in her first several points of parliamentary procedure made to Robin Cook MP, Leader of the House of Commons, in the House Judiciary Committee hearings on the suspension of Keith Vaz MP.
The ballerina rose gracefully en pointe and extended one slender leg behind her, like a dog at a lamppost.
The revelation that his marriage of 30 years had disintegrated because of his wife's infidelity came as a rude shock, like a surcharge at a formerly surcharge-free cashpoint.
The dandelion swayed in the gentle breeze like an oscillating electric fan set on medium.
It was a working class tradition, like fathers chasing kids around with their power tools.
He was deeply in love. When she spoke, he thought he heard bells, as
if she were a dustcart reversing.
She was as easy as the Daily Star crossword.
She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room-temperature British beef.
She walked into my office like a centipede with 98 missing legs.
Her voice had that tense, grating quality, like a first-generation thermal paper fax machine that needed a band tightened.
It hurt the way your tongue hurts after you accidentally staple it to the wall.
Oops, posted this to the wrong thread....:(
This belongs to the 'Harry Potter/Jim Dale' thread!
This belongs to the 'Harry Potter/Jim Dale' thread!
>>Almost all Germans (at least the ones I've met, and I've met thousands) firmly believe that 'British English' is the 'correct' version, and that there's something 'wrong' or inadequate about American English. They always say 'we want to learn British English!' I try to throw in a few Americanisms now and then...they'll never know...;)<<
I have to say that, while it is the choice of such students to try to learn whatever forms of English they want to, I still have to very strong take exception to the idea that English English is somehow "correct", as opposed to "American" English (really North American English as a whole, I would guess) somehow not being "correct". Such is simply due to linguistic ideas about descriptivism and the concept of "correctness", and part is simply that I still just have to personally take exception to such ideas simply due to being a native NAE-speaker. That said, while some may justify such views on political grounds, the politics linked to overall US global power, whether from a government or from a business standpoint, has nothing at all to do with that which the general population of English-speaking North America speaks whatsoever, and in a way is more just a pretext or an at justification more than anything else.
>>I like TRAVIS'S detailed post and I agree with most of what he says. Using the terms *English English* *British English* *American English* and all the other *Englishes* are only meaningful if you want to identify a country as a whole.
In the USA the term *American English* is useless really because someone from Vermont would not sound anything like a person from Texas. Likewise, it's the same situation here in the UK with it's even more clearly defined regions which include separate countries within a country.<<
The main thing is that not just that there are many subdivisions within "American English" which the term of course does not indicate, but rather simply that it is trying to impose political boundaries on language, when actual linguistic boundaries and dialect subdivisions do not correspond with such, simply because in most places there are no clear divisions between "American" and "Canadian" English, the sharp dialect split between Detroit and Windsor being a notable exception to such. On the other hand, subdividing "British" English into specifically English, Scottish, and Welsh Englishes is useful because each of the three do very specifically differ from each other, in a way that "American" and "Canadian" English do not, even though, yes, there are not only significant subdivisions within English English, but also some far northern dialects of such do have things in common with Scots and Scottish English in places.
I have to say that, while it is the choice of such students to try to learn whatever forms of English they want to, I still have to very strong take exception to the idea that English English is somehow "correct", as opposed to "American" English (really North American English as a whole, I would guess) somehow not being "correct". Such is simply due to linguistic ideas about descriptivism and the concept of "correctness", and part is simply that I still just have to personally take exception to such ideas simply due to being a native NAE-speaker. That said, while some may justify such views on political grounds, the politics linked to overall US global power, whether from a government or from a business standpoint, has nothing at all to do with that which the general population of English-speaking North America speaks whatsoever, and in a way is more just a pretext or an at justification more than anything else.
>>I like TRAVIS'S detailed post and I agree with most of what he says. Using the terms *English English* *British English* *American English* and all the other *Englishes* are only meaningful if you want to identify a country as a whole.
In the USA the term *American English* is useless really because someone from Vermont would not sound anything like a person from Texas. Likewise, it's the same situation here in the UK with it's even more clearly defined regions which include separate countries within a country.<<
The main thing is that not just that there are many subdivisions within "American English" which the term of course does not indicate, but rather simply that it is trying to impose political boundaries on language, when actual linguistic boundaries and dialect subdivisions do not correspond with such, simply because in most places there are no clear divisions between "American" and "Canadian" English, the sharp dialect split between Detroit and Windsor being a notable exception to such. On the other hand, subdividing "British" English into specifically English, Scottish, and Welsh Englishes is useful because each of the three do very specifically differ from each other, in a way that "American" and "Canadian" English do not, even though, yes, there are not only significant subdivisions within English English, but also some far northern dialects of such do have things in common with Scots and Scottish English in places.
Adam,
"That's the typical American's response, and proves once again that the British, and not the Americans, care about the English language."
I don't think, many bretons use more and more US vocabulary today, i think US English will the language for everyone sooner or later.
"That's the typical American's response, and proves once again that the British, and not the Americans, care about the English language."
I don't think, many bretons use more and more US vocabulary today, i think US English will the language for everyone sooner or later.
I fear, Mac is the American variant of Adam. Hé! that makes you a dissease!