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The English word for "Germany"
Travis : « (...) okay, they stole your bicycles, but can you get over it already (...) »
:) Travis : « (...) things such as the idea of "French is the language of the republic" in the case of French ». :(
A ps on the "stealing of bicycles", if that was supposed to be a some kind of euphemism on the suffereing of the Dutch people then I think it is an excellent display of bad taste. 250,000 people died, using that as an excuse for me having a different opinion than you is sick.
>>A ps on the "stealing of bicycles", if that was supposed to be a some kind of euphemism on the suffereing of the Dutch people then I think it is an excellent display of bad taste. 250,000 people died, using that as an excuse for me having a different opinion than you is sick.<<
Suffering of the *Dutch* people? If I recall correctly, practically all of Europe except for Great Britain, Ireland, Spain, and Sweden which was not allied with or Waffenbrüder with Germany was subject to German occupation at some point (and even then, areas like Italy and Finland still were in part under German occupation at points), and things such as the mass deportation of Jews to concentration/death camps were in no fashion unique to the Netherlands. And yes, I know about the Hongerwinter perfectly well, but at the same time, much of eastern Europe was subject to atrocities just as horrible, and yet I haven't heard too much of, say, Poles these days acting as if Germans were some kind of great and terrible historical enemy of yore which are to be sustained to date through things such as soccer club rivalries and like (despite things such as the conflicts between Poland, Lithuania, and the Teutonic Knights). Anyways, the reason why I mentioned the stealing of bicycles is because sometimes it seems like people mention it as if it was the worst thing that the Germans did to the Netherlands, leaving the Hongerwinter to be mentioned as a side note if it is not explicitly brought up.
Naming other terrible things does not justify your remark. And if you think the Hongerwinter was the worst thing to happen the Netherlands then your dead wrong.
>>Naming other terrible things does not justify your remark. And if you think the Hongerwinter was the worst thing to happen the Netherlands then your dead wrong.<<
The mass deportation of Jews to concentration camps and death camps was undoubtedly worse, but at the same time it was in no fashion limited to the Netherlands, but rather was common to just about any area under German control or the control of German puppet states which had Jews to deport. The Hongerwinter, unlike such, is actually something one can speak off as being an atrocity against the *Dutch* people specifically. And anyways, what I was referring to present bitterness by Dutch individuals towards Germany, represented by "they stole our bicycles", not the actual historic atrocities that the Germans did commit in the Netherlands during the occupation. >>You forgot Finland, the vatican and Switzerland.<< I know I forgot those, except Finland. When I mentioned "Waffenbrüder" I was specifically referring to Finland. But as occupation goes, northern Finland was shortly controlled by German troops after Finland had agreed to a separate peace with the Soview Union and Finland was obligated by the terms of said separate peace to expel all German troops from Finland.
Oh lord, WWII again? You Europeans need to have another war already, so you can get over that one!
I find it amusing that certain latins on the forum are sniffing at the English use of "Germany" when their own beloved/sacred parent language used "Germania". And countries go by all kinds of names outside their own borders -- what's the big deal? China and Japan don't call themselves that, do they? And neither Germany nor any permutation of Alemania comes anywhere close to the native word Deutschland, so neither of them can claim to be more "right" than the other.
I for one wouldn't mind unnarrowing the meaning of "Dutch" to include all non-Anglo-Frisian West Germanic-speakers, and using terms derived from "Netherland(s)" when specifically referring to things related to the Netherlands and the Dutch language. Of course, then, that would make "Germany" be "Dutchland", as "Dutch" is clearly cognate with "Deutsch".
As Uriel points out, WW2 really is an outdated topic, but perhaps it is just hammered too hard into people's hearts, as examplified by this tragic Norwegian poem, written by Inger Hagerup as a reaction to the German invasion of Norway and more specifically some local atrocities on Austvågøy:
Aust-Vågøy De brente våre gårder. De drepte våre menn. La våre hjerter hamre det om og om igjen. La våre hjerter hugge med harde, vonde slag. De brente våre gårder. De gjorde det i dag. De brente våre gårder. De drepte våre menn. Bak hver som gikk i døden, står tusener igjen. Står tusen andre samlet i steil og naken tross. Å, døde kamerater, de kuer aldri oss = Aust-Vågøy They burnt our farms They killed our men Let our hearts hammer it Over and over again. Let our hearts cut With strong, hurting strokes They burnt our farms They did it today. They burnt our farms They killed our men Behind each who went into death thousands stand left. Stand thousand others gathered in steep and naked defiance. Oh, dead comrades They'll never subjugate us.
>>The mass deportation of Jews to concentration camps and death camps was undoubtedly worse, but at the same time it was in no fashion limited to the Netherlands, but rather was common to just about any area under German control or the control of German puppet states which had Jews to deport. The Hongerwinter, unlike such, is actually something one can speak off as being an atrocity against the *Dutch* people specifically. <<
Is it a sport in wisconsin to make these ridiculous remarks? If I knew you'd lost 4 members of your family wouldn't you find it strange if I were to come up to you and say "ah, you lost a few bycycles so what? I know people who 've lost 6 family members." It's the genocide in the Balkans doesn't matter because it doesn't compare to the holocaust.
>>Is it a sport in wisconsin to make these ridiculous remarks? If I knew you'd lost 4 members of your family wouldn't you find it strange if I were to come up to you and say "ah, you lost a few bycycles so what? I know people who 've lost 6 family members."<<
You missed the whole point of the "they stole our bicycles" thing. The reason why I even mentioned such is that such apparently is a common gripe made by some Dutch individuals about Germans overall, in this case representing overall lingering bitterness about WW2 in the Netherlands in general, not that such somehow was the worst thing that the Germans did in the Netherlands (which it most definitely was not). Another question I have is what does Wisconsin have to do with any of this? >>It's the genocide in the Balkans doesn't matter because it doesn't compare to the holocaust.<< You totally missed what I was saying about the Holocaust - I was not saying that other actions in the Netherlands by the Germans did not matter because the Holocaust, which was undoubtedly worse, was not limited to the Netherlands. What I was saying is that you cannot treat it as a specific crime against the Dutch people, and that why should the Dutch be more bitter about it than people from any other area of Europe where Jews which were killed by the Nazis had lived.
Uff, now, please stop arguing like the worst people on this forum. You are too good for this! Although i have a hard time penetrating Travis' caveat-rich style, I think he wants to know why the Dutch still are so hostile towards the Germans, compared to other countries occupied by the Nazis which suffered more or less or circa the same.
The Dutch may dislike the Germans, but I think everyone does, really. It's certainly a bit of a tradition here in England, although in the last ten years or so it's become more of an instance of Germany being a country "one loves to hate", rather than the true hatred that existed during the war.
I suspect Holland has a bit of an inferiority complex towards it's larger and dominant neighbour, especially considering its relative youth.
"The Dutch may dislike the Germans, but I think everyone does, really."
...a lot of people in Europe, that's true! But I don't think that the Germans are very unpopular in North America, and especially in South America. What about the Asian countries, they seem to really adore the Germans.
>>What I was saying is that you cannot treat it as a specific crime against the Dutch people, and that why should the Dutch be more bitter about it than people from any other area of Europe where Jews which were killed by the Nazis had lived. <<
And I do this? |