A concept of time

Ant_222   Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:18 pm GMT
«Is there any difficulty to notice the time span? I don't think so.»

According to that explanation, PTS is just a time span wherein lie all actions expressed by Present Perfect. Is that a good idea to define time through tense?

«...has a PTS which ranges from SOME POINT IN THE PAST to now»

Yes, they are right here. "Some point" can be the date of birth of that person (as a lower estimate).

In general, PTS denotes a time interval closed an the right end, the left end being located in minus infinity. In oter words, whatever point you take, it is always to the left of it. But that's not a definition, just a feature of PTS. The only definition I have seen is throug the tense.

«However, the quote has only demonstrated the catastrophe of one-sentence basis, which fails to tell where is "SOME POINT IN THE PAST" in (3).»

No catastrophe here. The sentence doesn't provide a certain left point, and the quotation does nothing more than admit this fact.

«Henry divorced his wife and left the country in 1999. He has lived in Somerville."»

To native/good English speakers (and engtense, of course):
1) Is it a good example?
2) Isn't it possible that Henry lived in Somerville before 1999?
And: divorced->divorced with.

«So why is there any difficulty in understanding the Perfect Time Span for Present Perfect tense?»

Because PTS is not actually just a time interval. An action's being locatated in PTS dependnd not only on the time thereof, but also on the readers attitude towards it: In different contexts the same action can be expressed in Past Simple (not in PTS) and in Present Perfect (in PTS). Thus, PTS is an essential property of the Present Perfect tense, not of Time...

«Henry has lived in Somerville" doesn't imply 'to now'»

No, it does. But in a different way. This sentence says that somewhere in the time period since however long ago to Now lies the interval of the action of Henry's living there.

«Therefore, a more correct example will appear like this:
Ex: "Henry divorced his wife and left the country in 1999. He has lived in Somerville. Now he works in Hong Kong."»

Again I address this native/good English speakers (and to engtense):
1) Is it a good example? (I don't think so)
2) Isn't it possible that Henry lived in Somerville before 1999?
(divorced->divorced with.)

20IR: «But please, don't tell me you're going for 2000 now!»

What if we do? And why do you use a dynamically changing nick?

«You are the only person who claims doesn't know how to locate the Perfect Time. If another agrees with you, the number is expanding. Ask them to support you.»

Don't need number. I need the truth ;)
engtense   Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:32 pm GMT
It will certainly pass 2000 posts if I will talk to Ant_222.

I said:
«Ex: They have worked there in the past. (a past action)
Ex: They have worked there since April. (a present action)
Therefore, on one-sentence basis, you cannot tell the difference between the three tenses.»

Ant_222 wrote:
<<I pretty easily can. Those sentences don't need any context to be easily distinguishable. The first one expresses a past actin while the second — a present one.>>

My reply:
He answered my saying just by repeating my saying!! What kind of a discussion is this?

I point out the difficulty BETWEEN THE THREE TENSES. He just explained ONE TENSE – "pretty easily"!!

He is very good at this kind of evasive argument. The bad thing is, he seems quite serious and persistent. This troubles me. I really cannot cope with him. I will waste his precious time in murmuring with him, so I would rather shut up. But this leads to another question: it seems that I fail to meet his questions. What a vicious circle.

I had better save my time. Others will respond to him, anyway.
20IC   Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:05 pm GMT
"[W]hy do you use a dynamically changing nick?"

Too much "identity theft" in this forum.

On to 2000!
Ant_222   Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:07 pm GMT
"Too much 'identity theft' in this forum.

Actually it's me, 20IH.

QED.
Ant_222   Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:22 pm GMT
engtense: «He answered my saying just by repeating my saying!! What kind of a discussion is this?»

You wrote:
«Therefore, on one-sentence basis, you cannot tell the difference between the three tenses»

I said that can easily see the difference between the two sentences without any context, that is — on one-sentece basis.

«I point out the difficulty BETWEEN THE THREE TENSES. He just explained ONE TENSE – "pretty easily"!!»

In your example there were two sentences, both using Present Perfect. I commented on it.

«He is very good at this kind of evasive argument. The bad thing is, he seems quite serious and persistent. This troubles me. I really cannot cope with him. I will waste his precious time in murmuring with him, so I would rather shut up. But this leads to another question: it seems that I fail to meet his questions. What a vicious circle.»

Engtense is very good at this kind of evasive argument. The bad thing is, he seems quite serious and persistent. This troubles me. I really cannot cope with him. I will waste his precious time in murmuring with him, so I would rather shut up. But this leads to another question: it seems that I fail to meet his questions. What a vicious circle ;)

«I had better save my time. Others will respond to him, anyway.»

No way they will support you in those replies...

20IH: «Too much "identity theft" in this forum»

How does a changing nick help you avoid it?
20IE   Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:51 pm GMT
"How does a changing nick help you avoid it?"

It doesn't.

But it allows me to authenticate my own postings. Unless "my" next posting is coded a certain way, it will be a fake.
Ant_222   Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:34 pm GMT
20IE:

Hmm, I remember asking a similar question before at this forum. Was it you?

«But it allows me to authenticate my own postings. »

Can't you do this by content equally well?

Or is this system aimed at a possible need to proof, by publishing the algorithm, a post's being authentic or fake?
22BC   Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:54 pm GMT
Ant_222

Go to your hole, Mr. Ant! I have no time for ya useless babbling!
Ant_222   Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:57 pm GMT
What a pity...
Ants for Pants   Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:04 am GMT
Whoa...Socrates over here...watch out
Geoff_One   Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:33 am GMT
Last week I WENT to a new department store. I BOUGHT many things. I RECOMMENDED the store to Ms Lee. Now she BUYS her things there.
engtense   Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:48 am GMT
Reason?
engtense   Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:57 am GMT
Now a reason has come up. Spanish does use "recommended" in this way.

But Spanish may not have a Present Perfect problem.
engtense   Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:14 am GMT
In fact, my example can do without "last week":
"I WENT to a new department store. I BOUGHT many things. I HAVE RECOMMENDED the store to Ms Lee. Now she BUYS her things there."

BOUGHT means closely happened to WENT, while HAVE RECOMMENDED doesn't.
engtense   Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:40 am GMT
I have my explanation for the example:
Ex: "Last week I WENT to a new department store. I BOUGHT many things. I HAVE RECOMMENDED it to Ms Lee. Now she BUYS her things there."
== The underlying reason is very simple: if the recommendation is also in Last Week, why is it not in Simple Past also? But if it is outside Last Week, it should not be said in Simple Past, or else it will be understood as happening in Last Week.

The same reasoning can apply to the following example:
Ex: "Henry DIVORCED his wife and LEFT the country in 1999. He HAS LIVED in Somerville. Now he WORKS in Hong Kong."
== The underlying reason is very simple: if the living in Somerville is also in 1999, why is it not in Simple Past also? But if it is outside 1999, it should not be said in Simple Past, or else it will be understood as happening in 1999. Also, it should not be understood as living before 1999, or it will take Past Perfect.