A concept of time

Ant_222   Sat May 27, 2006 4:55 pm GMT
ATTAMPT TO DISARGUE ENGTENSE
READ EVERYBODY
(maybe you'll support my argumentation)

Engtense, try not to ignore the argumets in the post below, please, for it makes normal discussion impossible. Thanks.

«Does the pattern <Present Perfect + since> have two implications, either a past action or not a past action?»

Yes!
1. My father has changed two cars since 1979 (— past actions)
2. We have lived here since 1986. — («still not a past action», as you call it.)

«If Tomorrow must be a future time, then next hour, next minute, next second, and next millisecond must be a future time too. If so, where is the present time? I have reported here that readers in another forum could not answer this question and the discussion has become a (temporary) halt. Today, there is still no further response there.»

Oh, no! I have answerd to that several times., including this thread. So, you should have written: «readers... couldn't give an answer that I'd agree with.»

«They help other verbs to indicate an uncertainty, a so-called future action.»
Again. Why do you call future actions uncertainities?

Ex.: Probably he was at home at that time.
That's an uncertainty about a past moment.

Ex.: Probably he'll be at home tomorrow
That's an uncertainty about a future moment.

Ex.: The Sun will certainly go down tomorrow, as it did today.

I think, uncertainity has nothing common with time.
Also, there is no strict certainty: one may be more or less sure about an action, be at a past, present, or a future action.

An anction's time mustn't depend on a person's certainty about it.

«Therefore, if next time "I see/am seeing the movie tomorrow", it is only a present habit that is not yet finished not.»

Nope, that's just an incorrent sentence ;)

«They will visit us Next Week.
Again, they [above examples] each are not really an action. They are only a supposition, an uncertainty.»

Visiting somebody is an action, irregardless of a person's knowledge of the given instance (that specific visit) of such action, and irregerdless of time of this action. Future visits are visits, and therefore actions, as well as past visits.

Let's read a couple of your statements:
1. « A future action is judged by an auxiliary modal verb.»
2. «We are not omniscience, and have uncertainty in the future, at the present, and in the past. Therefore, modal auxiliary verbs can pair with various kinds of time adverbials...»

So, you didn't supply a criteria of a future action. And all that is very confusing...

And I can express an unertainty with no auxilary verbs:
«Probably, ...»

--------------------
Also:
«I will leave for London tomorrow» — an uncertainity, as you call it.
But I can express exactly the same by saying:
«I am leaving for London tomorrow» — I hope, you won't call the latter a present action.
--------------------

«Even to be the most precise, in a timeline we can only cut into two parts, the past and the non-past:
---------------+----------------»

That's derived from one of my older posts. When I used the time axis, you told me that I couldn't divide it into time periods, and other nonsense. Now you are cutting the time axis «to be the most precise».

Ok, now that you have divided the time axis, you assert a very confusing statement:

«The shortest past instant is to the left, while the shortest present and the shortest future instants are overlapped [! — Ant] to the right.»

You came to this conlusion through speculation with the terms «time», «action» and «the time of an action»

How you did it:
1. You say that «I am watching the TV now» is a present action
2. You say that «In two mitutes my friend will call me» is a future action.
3. Since you'll be still watching the TV when he calls, you conclude that the future and the present are overlapped.

Number three is wrong. The problem is that you mixed the ideas of a presen action (and of just an action) and the present time (as well, as of time). Present time is a moment, while an action always has length.

«Ex: "I see the movie tomorrow."»

Again, this is grammatically incorrect!!! And you agreed with that a long time ago. Now you use it again.

«...Again, it has nothing to do with time adverbial, which is hardly a future time, for it is within this week.»

My car is mine. It's among the cars of THIS town (where I am now). Therefore, all cars in the town are mine! LOL!

Everything is withing something larger. Every time moment is withing an uncountable multiplicity of time periods, as well as every time period is part of an uncountable multiplicity of longer periods.

But that doesn't allow you to extrapolate properties of a part on the properties of the whole!

Your criteria for past actions is that they are finished.
But presebt and future actions are overlapped in your system.

Let's improve your criteria:
1. Finished action — a past action
2. An action that hasn't begun — a futurte action
3. Begun but not yet finished — a present action
No overlapping in actions classification. And no modal verbs are involved!

Furthermore, I am pretty shure you can classify any given time moment as a past, present or future moment. And that gives a clear definition of present, past and future times:

1. The multitude of all past moments is the past.
2. The multitude of all future moments is the future
3. The multitude of all present moments is the present, and it's clear that there's only one such moment.

No problems, no time overlapping, no confusing.

Why do you promote your complex and confusing system, where time is classified in terms of language, as if time depends on language?!

Can you explain the tense choice in your own sentence:
«Who has laid down the condition that the present action must be doing at the moment of speaking?»

You have everithing you need for that: the context. It's on the page 29 of this thread. Can you explain it it terms of your concept of time or not?

«If you say it is a present action and it turns out not a fact, it is not OK. You have a bad credibility. In some cases, it is a crime.»

LOL! It's rather a crime to answer my posts selectively and to ingnore argumets that you can't reply to.
engtense   Sun May 28, 2006 6:18 am GMT
<<Engtense, try not to ignore the argumets in the post below, please, for it makes normal discussion impossible.>>

Did I ever ignore any argument? I apologize if I have. Please bring it back so I can follow up.
engtense   Sun May 28, 2006 9:52 am GMT
I asked: Does the pattern <Present Perfect + since> have two implications, either a past action or not a past action?

You wrote:
<<Yes!
1. My father has changed two cars since 1979 (- past actions)
2. We have lived here since 1986. - («still not a past action», as you call it.)>>

My reply: If you claim there are two implications in <Present Perfect + since>, you nearly say English grammars have no agreement in using such a structure. However, as far as I know, grammars have already achieved an agreement. Let's study the pros and cons.

If according to your argument, in "My father has changed two cars since 1979", we may use Present Perfect to say a past action, even we tell the past time of the action. Will you accept that? Why don't you use Simple Past instead? Or will you choose Simple Past for it? I am afraid not. Few English native speakers will use Simple Past with time adverbial "since 19xx".

If according to your argument, in such a Since-structure, we have specified a time span like "since 1979", and will use only one kind of tense - Present Perfect, and yet we still cannot deliver the idea whether the action is a finish or not. Do you believe that? Has English tense come to such an uncertainty? I hardly believe it.

If according to your argument of two implications, when someone says "I have worked here since 2000", I have to ask further where you are working now, because <Present Perfect + since> has two kinds of implications. How do I know "I have worked here since 2000" must be an unfinished action? So there goes:
A: "I have worked here since 2000."
B: "Where do you work now?"
Will we usually ask such a question? I am afraid not. We don't ask this way because English grammars have agreed that, with Since, Present Perfect indicates an unfinished up to now, as in the following page:
<<Present Perfect Tense - For and Since

We use Present Perfect tense to talk about action which started in the past and continues up to the present.

Examples
I have had this computer for about a year.
I haven't seen Julia since September.>>
== http://www.eclecticenglish.com/grammar/PresentPerfect1D.html

I could easily quote many grammar pages teaching this agreed use of Since. And I challenge you to show me one web page about grammar teaching <Present Perfect + since> contains two implications you have pointed out.

Then why? Since English grammars agree there is Future Tense, why will we abolish the agreement once we have met difficulty, and claim there is no Future Tense?

Then why? Since English grammars agree that tense is used to express time, why will we abolish the agreement once we have met difficulty, and claim Simple Present expresses habit?

Then why? Since English grammars agree that <Present Perfect + since> says an unfinished action up to now, why will we abolish the agreement once we have met difficulty, and claim there are two implications, either finished or unfinished, in such a structure?

Why don't we solve the difficulty instead, and keep the common agreement?
engtense   Sun May 28, 2006 10:05 am GMT
According to tense-changing process, Simple Present "I work here" has to change into Present Perfect if we add a DPTA (Definite Past Time Adverbial) to it:
Ex: I have worked here since 2000.

However, if the original Simple Present action contains a time adverbials which is not a DPTA, there is a little inconvenience. Of course, the non-DPTA cannot start the tense-changing process:
Ex: My father changes cars sometimes.
== It is a present action, an action now not yet finished.
Now if we add a DPTA to it, we may want to change 'SOMETIMES' also to a more definite timepiece:
Ex: My father has changed two cars since 1979.
== It means my father has changed cars TWO TIMES since 1979.
For those who know the tense-changing process, the inconvenience is too small to be a difficulty.

Simply put, "My father has changed two cars since 1979" has come from 'My father changes cars sometimes', which is an unfinished action, rather than a past action.

Even in the conventional way of analysis, if we have to analyze "My father has changed two cars since 1979", we have to take the sentence as a whole, which includes "since 1979". As "since 1979" is not a finished time, the action that includes the unfinished time as a whole is not a finished action.
In contrast, "He changed his car in 2000" is a finished action, together with its timing "in 2000".

In "My father has changed two cars since 1979", the sentence expresses an intermission, while the tense expresses an unfinished time. As a whole, it is a present action, not a past action.
Ant_222   Sun May 28, 2006 10:18 am GMT
At the same webside, that you mentioned:

I.
We use the Present Perfect Tense to talk about experiences. It is important if we have done it in our lives or not. It is not important when we did it.

Examples
I have been abroad two times.
Anna has never broken a leg.
Have you ever eaten sushi?

[The same as «My father has changed rwo cars since 1979» — Ant_222]

II.
We also use the Present Perfect Tense to talk about a past action that has the result in the present.

Examples
I have lost my wallet. = I don't have it now.
Jimmy has gone to South America. = He isn't here now.
Have you finished your homework? = Is your homework ready?

As you see, past actions are expressed with the Present Perfect as well...

Actually, it's not enough to know only the formal structre (or pattern).
Ant_222   Sun May 28, 2006 10:22 am GMT
«In "My father has changed two cars since 1979", the sentence expresses an intermission, while the tense expresses an unfinished time. As a whole, it is a present action, not a past action.»

The time is since 1979 till now.
But, they are two past actions that he's changed the car for the first and the second time.

So, that two changes of the car are both past actions.
greg   Sun May 28, 2006 12:38 pm GMT
Une formulation comme <He changed 2 cars since 1979 > serait agrammaticale ?
Guest   Sun May 28, 2006 1:33 pm GMT
"He changed two cars" is grammatical but doesn't make sense on its own. It seems to convey that he modified the two cars (e.g. their engines).
But "he has changed cars twice since 1979" implies he has been through two cars and is now on his third.
engtense   Sun May 28, 2006 1:58 pm GMT
<<Une formulation comme <He changed 2 cars since 1979 > serait agrammaticale ? >>

My reply:
I am afraid that, with Since 19xx, we don't use Simple Past.
engtense   Sun May 28, 2006 2:02 pm GMT
I said: If Tomorrow must be a future time, then next hour, next minute, next second, and next millisecond must be a future time too. If so, where is the present time? I have reported here that readers in another forum could not answer this question and the discussion has become a (temporary) halt. Today, there is still no further response there.

Ant_222 wrote:
<<Oh, no! I have answerd to that several times., including this thread. So, you should have written: «readers... couldn't give an answer that I'd agree with.»>>

My reply:
I clearly mentioned "readers in another forum". You were not there, I am afraid. By the way, they have had response now. After a long pause, they suggested that future time is non-past and non-present. We have continued the discussion there.

Did you answer my question? You mean the symbols like: (0, +inf), 0, (-inf, 0), don't you?
After discussion with me, you have already updated the symbols:
<<Yes, it's better to call it N(t).
Past=(-inf, N(t))
Future=(N(t), +inf), where t is the current time.>>
How do you know the updated version of symbols is the final and the best version?

Please note that I have challenged you to show me a web page carrying such symbols, so that I may have learnt it, in order to carry on discussion. If we don't have the common knowledge about these symbols, where is the basis on which we discuss?

In your "where t is the current time", can I go on the discussion without knowing what is exactly "t", the current time? Again, what do you mean by "N(t)"? I have not any idea about it.

Also, what do you mean by "inf"? I guess it stands for 'infinite', isn't it? But if the past and the future are also infinite, do we have current time in the middle at all?

As for myself, I have done my best not to create new terms. I keep use of the common terms in the conventional grammars. Common terms like past, present, future, action, sentence, finish, unfinished, etc. are the main concepts in my explanation. I have just defined them more clearly and correctly. Children also use tense. Terms not understandable to them are jargons not really needed in tense. This is my juvenile belief.

At last, as I have told you, readers in this thread have no consistent agreement whatsoever in any tense. For example, they didn't suggest symbols at all. We express our own opinion here and I know mine is not the best option. I am afraid you take the discussion too seriously when you claimed:
<<ATTAMPT TO DISARGUE ENGTENSE
READ EVERYBODY
(maybe you'll support my argumentation)>>
Didn't they express their own opinion? Why would they drop theirs and support yours? I can see the logic here.

Can't you see they can easily overpower me, while I am always helplessly defending myself? They allow me to express myself, because they know what the forum is for.
engtense   Sun May 28, 2006 2:25 pm GMT
I said: In "My father has changed two cars since 1979", the sentence expresses an intermission, while the tense expresses an unfinished time. As a whole, it is a present action, not a past action.

Ant_222 wrote:
<<The time is since 1979 till now.
But, they are two past actions that he's changed the car for the first and the second time.
So, that two changes of the car are both past actions.>>

My reply:
You are switching the evidence of time. The sentence "My father has changed two cars since 1979" clearly have noted the controlling time: "since 1979", rather than "for the first and the second time".

You have separated "since 1979" from the actions, and then planted "for the first and the second time" in the actions.

I am afraid this is not fair.
Ant_222   Sun May 28, 2006 2:44 pm GMT
«Did you answer my question? You mean the symbols like: (0, +inf), 0, (-inf, 0), don't you?»

Ok. About any two different moments of time we can say which one is later. Threfefore, we can depict any time moment on the time axis, so that any two moments will be located so that the later moment will be to the right of the earlier one.

Any moment on the axis will be a point, and any time period will be a length.

Then, let's denote the current time moment as t.
A lenth we will denote through it's ends:
(A; B) or
(27.05.06 13:21:01; 28.05.06 18:24:26)
+inf is such time moment, that there is no later moments.
-inf is such time moment, that there is no earlier moments.
If you don't like it, it's possible to operate without +/-inf.

What is the past?
The past is the multitude of time moments preceding to t.
(-inf, t) or
{T; T<t} — such T, that T<t. «<» means «less than».

The future: (t, +inf) or {T, T>t}

The present: t or {T, T=t}

«How do you know the updated version of symbols is the final and the best version?»

That's just another denotation of the same thing.
Is «lorry» better than «truck»? — a similar question.

«<<ATTAMPT TO DISARGUE ENGTENSE
READ EVERYBODY
(maybe you'll support my argumentation)>>
Didn't they express their own opinion? Why would they drop theirs and support yours?»

A said «maybe». I meant the case their opinion agrees with mine. Also, there are some questions that I can't resolve without the help of native speakers.

«Can't you see they can easily overpower me, while I am always helplessly defending myself?»

What do you want?
Do you want to post here and get no response?
Or would you prefer to get only positive response?
If your goal to know the truth, you should appreciate any criticism...

«Did I ever ignore any argument? I apologize if I have. Please bring it back so I can follow up.»

I am waiting for your further feedback on my «ATTEMPT...»
engtense   Sun May 28, 2006 2:47 pm GMT
Ant_222 wrote:
<< At the same webside, that you mentioned:
I.
We use the Present Perfect Tense to talk about experiences. It is important if we have done it in our lives or not. It is not important when we did it.
II.
We also use the Present Perfect Tense to talk about a past action that has the result in the present.

As you see, past actions are expressed with the Present Perfect as well...
Actually, it's not enough to know only the formal structre (or pattern).>>

My reply:
According to the tense-changing process, Present Perfect has dual functions, expressing either a present action or a past action:
--------------------
(a) Simple Present action indicates a present action:
Ex: I live in Hong Kong.
(b) Present Perfect action indicates a past action:
Ex: I have lived in Japan.

BUT: If we mention a definite past time, tenses have to be changed:
(c) Present Perfect action indicates a present action (=a):
Ex: I have lived in Hong Kong since 2003/in the past three years.
(d) Simple Past action indicates a past action (=b):
Ex: I lived in Japan five years ago.
-------------------

Ignoring the process, grammars have a difficulty in explaining Present Perfect. But the format of <Present Perfect + since>, which is the (c) point of the process, is well accepted. It expresses an unfinished action up to the present.

On the other hand, where is the web page that maintains <Present Perfect + since> has two implications?
Ant_222   Sun May 28, 2006 2:50 pm GMT
«You have separated "since 1979" from the actions, and then planted "for the first and the second time" in the actions.»

No. As I said, the time is since 1979 till now (=the moment of speech).
And two changes of car are located withing this period. And they are both past actions.

For example, suppose my father changed the first car in 1988, and the second one in 2004.

Now they are both past actions, but:
«My father has changed two cars since 1979» and
«My father changed two cars sicne 1979 till 2005»
engtense   Sun May 28, 2006 3:04 pm GMT
Ant_222 wrote:
<<+inf is such time moment, that there is no later moments.
-inf is such time moment, that there is no earlier moments.
If you don't like it, it's possible to operate without +/-inf.>>

My reply:
I am grad you have defined the symbols. But please note that the moments above don't exist.

-- There is no such a time moment that has no later moments.
-- There is no such a time moment that has no earlier moments.
If there is, please give some examples.

I am afraid that, if the basis is not correct, everything built on it is not correct.

--------------
<<If you don't like it, it's possible to operate without +/-inf.>>

My reply:
Now you have updated your symbols again. The new version seems to be a little bit hasty this time. Really, can we do without all the symbols?