A concept of time

engtense   Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:38 pm GMT
<<Nope, they both have only one adverb indicating time: yesterday. the other phrase — "in a time span of three weeks" - which you mistook as indicatin time, actually indicates duration.>>

My reply:
You are word-playing. If it doesn't indicate time, it indicates what? Money?

Because it is an action of "three weeks", we know the action is before yesterday, rather than between Yesterday and Now. You can never see the logic.
engtense   Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:01 pm GMT
As for this example:
<<Hemel Hempstead, England - Firefighters USED [1] CHEMICAL FOAM to extinguish part of the inferno raging Monday after explosions at a fuel depot north of London, while a huge oily smoke cloud from THE BLAZE DRIFTED [2.1] OVER northern France and HEADED [2.2] toward Spain.>>

You wrote:
<<My view on it. I can think of two explanations:
First. Everything is quite simple. The article was supposed to be read after the fire is extiguished. Though this is unlikely.
Second. Whether they are still fighting with fire or not, it's a fact that they applied chemical foam onto it. Maybe they'll appliy it once more. Therefore the Past Simple was used.
.....>>

My reply:
"MAYBE they'll appliy it once more. Therefore the Past Simple was used." – Yes, this is correct, if you believe in it yourself.

The firemen took a rest and had a cup of coffee, so it was finished for a while, and at this precious time the reporter uses Simple Past to say it. Now the firemen "apply it once more", but sorry, Simple Past is used!! Lucky reporter!!

Don't need to understand what I am talking about.

---------------------
However, the example above has nothing to do with Present Perfect. Do you agree?
engtense   Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:13 pm GMT
Ant_222 wrote:
<<Newspapers' use of the Present Perfect is in a good accordance with the rules you'll find in any conventional grammar book.>>

My reply:
Oh, I see. I know very well "the rule in any conventional grammar book".

Would it be that yesterday's happening has a result or consequence up to the present time, so the reporter may use present perfect?
engtense   Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:17 pm GMT
Ant_222 wrote:
«Far from commonplace?»
It shoul be: "and is not a commonplace".

My reply:
Yes, I keep it in mind.
engtense   Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:19 pm GMT
Ant_222 wrote:
Ok, I'll modify the question:
1. This house is located at River st.
2. I read books sometimes
Are they of the same time?

My reply:
My answer will be the same.
engtense   Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:26 pm GMT
Ant_222 wrote:
<<Actually, it's your approach that has fateful difficultis in explaining such examples. The conventional grammar explains it easily!>>

My reply:
Okay, I assume you have explained why there are SAID and SAYS in the same news. And you have also explained why sometimes Present Perfect, and sometimes Past Perfect. Right?
Arnie   Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:20 am GMT
I have no respect for people who have no respect for logic.

http://demon.twinflame.org/images/blogpics/arnie.jpg
Ant_222   Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:07 pm GMT
«I have no respect for people who have no respect for logic.»

Well, now I feel ashamed and... with these words in mind and heaviness in heart I continue posting.

«It is no more than a <Present Perfect + before>, why it is not a correct structure?»

Grammatically, it's ok I guess. I just don't like it with "before". If you added before to make it explainable more easily by means of your approach, well ok. But that in no way means the original sentence was not as good. Furthermore, I think it is even much better.

«If it is not Okay, so too will your example with "IN A SPACE OF THREE WEEKS", which is also 'in the end'.»

It has nothing to deal with correct/incorrect srtuctures. Both our examples are structurlly correct. Rather it is a question of style.

«On the web, you will not find grammar sources that talk about such combinations:
<Present Perfect + before>
<Present Perfect +in the past>»

I will. My softawere dictionary, ABBY Lingo 8.0 has such example:
«I have done your best at your time»

Also, I am pretty sure grammarians discuss many sentences like:
«I have not see it before».

As to the "past family", it's just quite rare. By not mentioning it grammarians in no way try hide the truth.

«You are word-playing. If it doesn't indicate time, it indicates what? Money?»

I don't really like this way of argumentation. Though, I'll ignore it and try explain:

1. I wrote this book two years ago.
2. I wrote this book in two months.

Don't see the diference? The first indicates time and second — duration.

But is you want to continue discussion, you should be more polite. Why all this mimicing? Will it help?

«Because it is an action of "three weeks", we know the action is before yesterday, rather than between Yesterday and Now. You can never see the logic.»

No, it's you. If, in that sentence, I change "yesterday" to "a month ago"? What will you say with all yuor logic? That the book was written after 'a month ago'? Right?

«The firemen took a rest and had a cup of coffee, so it was finished for a while, and at this precious time the reporter uses Simple Past to say it.»

No need in this laughter. Iy _can_ be an interruptive process. If it's not, I gave another explanation. You didn't quotate it though.

«Would it be that yesterday's happening has a result or consequence up to the present time, so the reporter may use present perfect?»

Yes, including that. Another reason here:
http://www.antimoon.com/forum/t5965.htm

«1. This house is located at River st.
2. I read books sometimes
Are they of the same time?

My reply:
My answer will be the same.»

But where is YOUR logic? Don't you see the difference between those two actions? In terms of conventional grammar, second sentence expresses a habitual action while the first — how they call it? You should know. I'd call it a passive present action.

Passive — because the house isn't actually doing something. So, it's more like a statement about a property of the house than an action performed by the house. And in English we report objects to have properties in Past Simple.

Compare:

1. The ball is (not is being) red
2. The ball is jumping on the floor.

Got it?

«My reply:
Okay, I assume you have explained why there are SAID and SAYS in the same news. And you have also explained why sometimes Present Perfect, and sometimes Past Perfect. Right?»

Right. Didn't I post my explanation thereof? See this topic:
http://www.antimoon.com/forum/t5965.htm

Just let's show our regard toward the other forum dwellers and discuss everything in here so there is only one thread driving them mad instead of two. Ok?
Ant_222   Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:18 pm GMT
I guess you migt take a look at this book:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/English-Style-Guide-Practical-Language/dp/9622016634

It's a guide to style designed specifically for chinese.

There's more to English than the tense!
engtense   Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:48 am GMT
Ant_222 wrote:
<<Grammatically, it's ok I guess. I just don't like it with "before". If you added before to make it explainable more easily by means of your approach, well ok. But that in no way means the original sentence was not as good. Furthermore, I think it is even much better.>>

My reply:
Your tone seemed to have changed. Did you check if there are grammar sources that talk about 'before' and 'in the past' with Present Perfect?
engtense   Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:57 am GMT
Ant_222 wrote:
<<It has nothing to deal with correct/incorrect srtuctures. Both our examples are structurlly correct. Rather it is a question of style.>>

My reply:
You talked about style, I didn't. This was what you said:
<<Nope, they both have only one adverb indicating time: yesterday. the other phrase — "in a time span of three weeks" - which you mistook as indicatin TIME, actually indicates duration.>>
So I had talked about TIME.

It was you who talked about style:
<<As to your supplement, a "before" in the end, I am not sure it ok.>>
engtense   Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:06 am GMT
Ant_222 wrote:
<<If, in that sentence, I change "yesterday" to "a month ago"? What will you say with all yuor logic? That the book was written after 'a month ago'? Right?>>

My reply:
Can you prove otherwise?

If the writing happens before "a month ago", why don't you use PAST PERFECT?
engtense   Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:55 am GMT
I said:
«Would it be that yesterday's happening has a result or consequence up to the present time, so the reporter may use present perfect?»

Ant_222 wrote:
<<Yes, including that. Another reason here:
http://www.antimoon.com/forum/t5965.htm
>>

My reply:
Ant_222, please do believe that, in news reports, yesterday's happening will be said in Simple Past -- even it has a result or consequence up to the present time. You may please ask about this with a new thread. It may help you understand.

By the way, you have repeatedly claimed that there is an answer in another web page, without explaining anything. I suggest you should not do this again, at least to me. I don't know what you want me to see.

You have to say something, and then quote a web page to support you. If you don't know what you should quote here yourself, how can I know what you want me to see?

In that web page I see you have listed this:
<<[4]. "Says" casts an emphasize on actuality. "Says"="current opinion is". Thus, Present Simple.>>
I say, does this carry any sense at all? Will you suggest that, in yesterday's news, the reporter uses SAID to imply less actuality than SAYS? Can a reporter judge whether it is actuality or not, just by himself or herself, and just by a tense?

If as you see "SAYS"="current opinion is", what is SAID doing? Will you suggest that, in news report, the reporter uses SAID to imply it is not "current opinion" anymore?

Do you want me to see this?
engtense   Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:39 am GMT
Ant_222 asked before:
«1. This house is located at River st.
2. I read books sometimes
Are they of the same TIME?»

My reply was:
My answer will be the same.

Now you wrote:
<<But where is your logic? Don't you see the difference between those two ACTIONS? In terms of conventional grammar, second SENTENCE expresses a habitual action while the first — how they call it? You should know. I'd call it a passive present ACTION.>>

My reply:
My dear Ant_222, if I am not fast enough, someone will jump in before me to answer you. Anyone will know how I answer such question. Anyone can see your trick, or your confusion.

By "My answer will be the same", I mean I have already answered you:
<<"The SENTENCE expresses the meaning, and the tense expresses the TIME." -- I guess I have repeated this more than 50 times here in this thread.>>

Look at my answer again, SENTENCE is not TIME. This is what I mean. This is my logic.

Now look at your own words, you at first asked me about TIME, and then are switching the topic of ACTIONS, SENTENCE, and ACTION, never to mention TIME again.

You asked me about TIME, so I answered Simple Present sentences are of the same time. I didn't expect you to switch to SENTENCE and ACTION.

Why didn't you first ask me "Are they of the same ACTIONS?" Then I would answer you they are not the same ACTIONS.

Tense is used to express time. I have claimed it before. I thought it was true when you said loudly:
<<Subconsciously? I agree with that knowingly!>>

Whether tense is used to express TIME or ACTION, is still a great mystery in English tense.

TIME is to judge, and ACTION is to be judged. How can they be the same? Is a policeman taking a thief to the police station, or the thief taking the policeman to the police station? Who knows? But I think there must be some difference between two terms.
engtense   Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:45 am GMT
Ant_222 wrote:
<<I guess you migt take a look at this book:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/English-Style-Guide-Practical-Language/dp/9622016634
It's a guide to style designed specifically for chinese.
There's more to English than the tense!>>

My reply:
Once again, I really don't know what you want me to see. If there is something that baffles me, you will have already quoted it here.