Minä olen australialainen, jolla on suomalainen isä ja australialainen äiti. Minulla oli virolainen ystävä, kun minä olin koulussa, ja me voisimme ymmärtää toisiansa. Suomenkieli on minun toinen kieleni, mutta minä olen sitä mieltä, että on vaikea kieli oppia syntyperäiselle puhujalle englantilaisen! Minuun hyvin tehtiin vaikutus huomaamaan, että "Riko" oppii suomea! Älkää huolestuttako Rikoa, muun suomalaisen nauttii ulkomaalaisten korkaamisesta, jotka yrittävät puhua suomea! Good on you, anyway! I have tried to teach my girlfriend the basics of Finnish and we have been together for 5 years, and all she can manage to say is "Minä rakastan sinua" and "Hei hei"!!!! :) If you ever want to practice your Finnish, feel free to send me an email at jr_sheedy@hotmail.com!
Closest language to your language.
So it's true! Now I see proof that the letter "B" doesn't occur in Finnish! At least, I couldn't see one in the text from JOHNNY. Are Finns able to pronounce the letter B? I reckon they can as most if not all of them have Swedish as a second Language.....don't they?
Johnny,
nice to see that you know the language of your father! Hauska nähdä, että osaat isäsi kieltä! Only one word was not understandable, namely 'korkaamisesta'. What did you mean with that?
Damian,
you are right, the letter 'b' doesn´t exist in genuine Finnish words. Still, almost all Finns are able to pronounce it because it is found in many loan words, like 'banaani', 'baari', 'bensiini', 'baletti', 'budjetti'. We all learn Swedish at school from the 7th grade but it is an exaggeration to say that most Finns would have Swedish as a second language. Young Finns speak usually English much better than Swedish. There are 300 000 Swedes in Finland, and I would suppose that at most another 300 000 Finns can Swedish so well that you could say it is their second language (I have learnt both languages as child from my parents).
On the other hand, Estonian doesn´t have the voiced sounds ´b´, ´d´ and ´g´ even in foreign words though the letters are common in the orthography. They are pronounced unvoiced but because Finnish and Estonian p/b don´t have the ´puff´ that e.g. English has ('post' is pronounced almost p-host) they perhaps sound somewhat voiced in a non-Finnic ear.
nice to see that you know the language of your father! Hauska nähdä, että osaat isäsi kieltä! Only one word was not understandable, namely 'korkaamisesta'. What did you mean with that?
Damian,
you are right, the letter 'b' doesn´t exist in genuine Finnish words. Still, almost all Finns are able to pronounce it because it is found in many loan words, like 'banaani', 'baari', 'bensiini', 'baletti', 'budjetti'. We all learn Swedish at school from the 7th grade but it is an exaggeration to say that most Finns would have Swedish as a second language. Young Finns speak usually English much better than Swedish. There are 300 000 Swedes in Finland, and I would suppose that at most another 300 000 Finns can Swedish so well that you could say it is their second language (I have learnt both languages as child from my parents).
On the other hand, Estonian doesn´t have the voiced sounds ´b´, ´d´ and ´g´ even in foreign words though the letters are common in the orthography. They are pronounced unvoiced but because Finnish and Estonian p/b don´t have the ´puff´ that e.g. English has ('post' is pronounced almost p-host) they perhaps sound somewhat voiced in a non-Finnic ear.
suomalainen, I have noticed that many Finns tend to pronounce the Swedish word "bra" (good) as "pra". Even those who has Swedish as their first language say pra in Finland. Is it usual that many loanwords in the Finnish langugae which start with a "b" in the other language become p when Finnish introduce the word in their/your language? I mean for exampel "panki".
I didn't know that "B" doesn't exist in Finnish. I guess that explains why a Finnish guy I used to chat with always confused "p" and "b" in English (for example, writing "propably" instead of "probably").
>>So it's true! Now I see proof that the letter "B" doesn't occur in Finnish! At least, I couldn't see one in the text from JOHNNY. Are Finns able to pronounce the letter B? I reckon they can as most if not all of them have Swedish as a second Language.....don't they?<<
Another proof for this is that there is no letter "b" in place names of Swedish origin. For example, the name of the city of Pori, famous for its jazz festivals, apparently comes from the abbreviation of Swedish Björneborg ("borg" being pronounced as "borj"), and the form "Pori" shows how it was actually pronunced by Finns. And in a Finnish short story I read (I forget which), the name Beata was spelt as Peata, which also shows that Finns usually pronounce "b" as"p" (allowing for the exceptions mentioned by Suomalainen).
Another proof for this is that there is no letter "b" in place names of Swedish origin. For example, the name of the city of Pori, famous for its jazz festivals, apparently comes from the abbreviation of Swedish Björneborg ("borg" being pronounced as "borj"), and the form "Pori" shows how it was actually pronunced by Finns. And in a Finnish short story I read (I forget which), the name Beata was spelt as Peata, which also shows that Finns usually pronounce "b" as"p" (allowing for the exceptions mentioned by Suomalainen).
most b words in Finnish are of foreign origin, but they do exist. some examples.
barbaari barbarian
basaari bazaar
baski basque
bensiini petrol
Berliini Berlin
biljoona billion
blondi blonde
Böömi Bohemia
bussi buss
baijeri bavaria
barbaari barbarian
basaari bazaar
baski basque
bensiini petrol
Berliini Berlin
biljoona billion
blondi blonde
Böömi Bohemia
bussi buss
baijeri bavaria
Ruling out Spanish creoles or some other dialects of Spanish, I would have to say Italian.
Sp: En el principio, Dios creó el cielos y la tierra. Ahora la tierra estaba sin forma y desierta y la oscuridad cubría el abismo y el espiritu de Dios se movía sobre las aguas
It: In principio Dio creò il cielo e la terra. Ora la terra era informe e deserta e le tenebre ricoprivano l'abisso e lo spirito di Dio aleggiava sulle acque.
Are you sure? I thought Portugese would be closer to Spanish than Italian.
Sp: En el principio, Dios creó el cielos y la tierra. Ahora la tierra estaba sin forma y desierta y la oscuridad cubría el abismo y el espiritu de Dios se movía sobre las aguas
It: In principio Dio creò il cielo e la terra. Ora la terra era informe e deserta e le tenebre ricoprivano l'abisso e lo spirito di Dio aleggiava sulle acque.
Are you sure? I thought Portugese would be closer to Spanish than Italian.
My language is Chinese, or Mandarin Chinese and Cantonese if you ask.
I think the closest language to Chinese outside our family group (which includes many languages/dialects in itself) is Korean.
I've heard many Koreans talk and asked them about many words. It appears that many Korean words sound very, very similar to their equivalents in one Chinese dialect or another.
Examples...
1. The name of a protagonist in a very popular Korean TV drama:
Korean= "Dae Jang Geum"
Cantonese= "Dai Tsung Gum"
Mandarin= "Da Chang Jing"
Similarities between Korean and Cantonese: dae=dai, geum=gum.
Similarities between Korean and Mandarin: dae=da, jang=chang.
The Mandarin and Cantonese pronunciations of the character's name are NOT transliterations of the Korean name; they are written with the exact same Chinese characters (or what the Koreans would call "hanja", as opposed to their native "hangul" script).
2. The names of South and North Korea, South Korean version:
Korean (southern)= Nam Han (S.K.), Book Han (N.K.)
Mandarin= Nan Han, Bei Han
Cantonese= Nam Hong, Buk Hong
Again, these are all written with the same characters (hanja).
3. "Korea", North Korean version:
Korean (northern)= Cho Son
Mandarin= Chao xian (pronounced "chao shian")
Same hanja, of course.
4. The numbers from one to ten:
Korean= Il, ee, sam, sa, oh, yuk, chil, pal, gu, ship.
Mandarin= Yi, er, san, shi, wu, liu, qi (pronounced "chi"), ba, jiu, shi.
Cantonese= Yut, ee, sam, sei, mm, luk, tsut, bat, gau, sup.
Not sure about hanja here, but pronunciation similarities are very evident.
Similarities between Korean and Mandarin: Sam=san, chil=qi, pal=ba, ship=shi.
Similarities between Korean and Cantonese: Ee=ee, sam=sam, yuk=luk, gu=gau.
With all these pronunciation similarities, I think it's unreasonable to explain away all of them as being coincidental.
I think the closest language to Chinese outside our family group (which includes many languages/dialects in itself) is Korean.
I've heard many Koreans talk and asked them about many words. It appears that many Korean words sound very, very similar to their equivalents in one Chinese dialect or another.
Examples...
1. The name of a protagonist in a very popular Korean TV drama:
Korean= "Dae Jang Geum"
Cantonese= "Dai Tsung Gum"
Mandarin= "Da Chang Jing"
Similarities between Korean and Cantonese: dae=dai, geum=gum.
Similarities between Korean and Mandarin: dae=da, jang=chang.
The Mandarin and Cantonese pronunciations of the character's name are NOT transliterations of the Korean name; they are written with the exact same Chinese characters (or what the Koreans would call "hanja", as opposed to their native "hangul" script).
2. The names of South and North Korea, South Korean version:
Korean (southern)= Nam Han (S.K.), Book Han (N.K.)
Mandarin= Nan Han, Bei Han
Cantonese= Nam Hong, Buk Hong
Again, these are all written with the same characters (hanja).
3. "Korea", North Korean version:
Korean (northern)= Cho Son
Mandarin= Chao xian (pronounced "chao shian")
Same hanja, of course.
4. The numbers from one to ten:
Korean= Il, ee, sam, sa, oh, yuk, chil, pal, gu, ship.
Mandarin= Yi, er, san, shi, wu, liu, qi (pronounced "chi"), ba, jiu, shi.
Cantonese= Yut, ee, sam, sei, mm, luk, tsut, bat, gau, sup.
Not sure about hanja here, but pronunciation similarities are very evident.
Similarities between Korean and Mandarin: Sam=san, chil=qi, pal=ba, ship=shi.
Similarities between Korean and Cantonese: Ee=ee, sam=sam, yuk=luk, gu=gau.
With all these pronunciation similarities, I think it's unreasonable to explain away all of them as being coincidental.
On the other hand, Japanese, despite all its kanji (Chinese characters), is completely different from Chinese in its pronunciation, vocabulary, sentence structure, grammar, and everything else you can think of.
An examination of a Japanese script might make it seem very similar to Chinese... until you start pronouncing the characters, and then each character has different pronunciations in every single phrase... it's crazy! It's so obvious that the characters were "tacked" onto a completely different language that they didn't really suit, lol.
As an example of what I mean by "different pronunciations in every single phrase", the Chinese character for "day" 日 is pronounced "nichi" in the Japanese word for "everyday" (mainichi 毎日), "u" or "ou" in the Japanese word for "today" (kyou 今日), and "ta" in the Japanese word for "tomorrow" (ashita 明日).
See how crazy kanji are in Japanese? Haha.
(In Chinese, the three Japanese words mentioned above would be pronounced "mei ri", "jin ri", and "ming ri". The character of note is pronounced "ri" throughout.)
An examination of a Japanese script might make it seem very similar to Chinese... until you start pronouncing the characters, and then each character has different pronunciations in every single phrase... it's crazy! It's so obvious that the characters were "tacked" onto a completely different language that they didn't really suit, lol.
As an example of what I mean by "different pronunciations in every single phrase", the Chinese character for "day" 日 is pronounced "nichi" in the Japanese word for "everyday" (mainichi 毎日), "u" or "ou" in the Japanese word for "today" (kyou 今日), and "ta" in the Japanese word for "tomorrow" (ashita 明日).
See how crazy kanji are in Japanese? Haha.
(In Chinese, the three Japanese words mentioned above would be pronounced "mei ri", "jin ri", and "ming ri". The character of note is pronounced "ri" throughout.)
Speaking about Korean, there are some things I have long wanted to ask:
1/ As I know, the commonest Korean family name is Kim. Actually, most Koreans I have met so far had this surname. Can somebody tell me what it actually means? (Similarly common Chinese names are - as far as I am aware - Wang <"king"> and Li <"plum">.)
2/ What is the reason that the official names of South and North Korea are entirely different: "Daehan Minkuk" and "Choson Minchu-chui Inmin Konghwa-guk", respectively? What is the actual Korean name for the Korean peninsula as a whole? As I know, "Korea" derives from the name of the Koryo dynasty, but what name do they themselves use?
1/ As I know, the commonest Korean family name is Kim. Actually, most Koreans I have met so far had this surname. Can somebody tell me what it actually means? (Similarly common Chinese names are - as far as I am aware - Wang <"king"> and Li <"plum">.)
2/ What is the reason that the official names of South and North Korea are entirely different: "Daehan Minkuk" and "Choson Minchu-chui Inmin Konghwa-guk", respectively? What is the actual Korean name for the Korean peninsula as a whole? As I know, "Korea" derives from the name of the Koryo dynasty, but what name do they themselves use?
Heehee: "I think the closest language to Chinese outside our family group (which includes many languages/dialects in itself) is Korean."
I have always found the relationship of Korean to other East Asian languages rather baffling. The Ethnologue site (http://www.ethnologue.com) lists it as an "isolate" language, i.e. one that is unrelated to any other known language group. At the same time, it has been associated with Japanese (another language with only tenuous links to any other group), with some Altaic languages (Tungusic, Yakut, maybe also some Mongolian languages) and now Heehee notes its similarity to Chinese, although this could also be due to word borrowing (Chinese seems to have had an enormous influence on both Korean and Vietnamese).
By the way, what Heehee has given as the Korean numbers are the ordinals. Here are the cardinals, from 1 to 10:
1. hana
2. tul
3. set
4. net
5. tasot
6. yosot
7. ilgop
8. yodolp
9. ahop
10. yol
There is so little similarity between the two that they could have entirely different origins (maybe the Koreans have borrowed the ordinals from Chinese?). Another baffling thing is that the ordinals are on the whole more similar to Cantonese than to Mandarin. So Korean remains quite a mystery of a language to me.
I have always found the relationship of Korean to other East Asian languages rather baffling. The Ethnologue site (http://www.ethnologue.com) lists it as an "isolate" language, i.e. one that is unrelated to any other known language group. At the same time, it has been associated with Japanese (another language with only tenuous links to any other group), with some Altaic languages (Tungusic, Yakut, maybe also some Mongolian languages) and now Heehee notes its similarity to Chinese, although this could also be due to word borrowing (Chinese seems to have had an enormous influence on both Korean and Vietnamese).
By the way, what Heehee has given as the Korean numbers are the ordinals. Here are the cardinals, from 1 to 10:
1. hana
2. tul
3. set
4. net
5. tasot
6. yosot
7. ilgop
8. yodolp
9. ahop
10. yol
There is so little similarity between the two that they could have entirely different origins (maybe the Koreans have borrowed the ordinals from Chinese?). Another baffling thing is that the ordinals are on the whole more similar to Cantonese than to Mandarin. So Korean remains quite a mystery of a language to me.
Sp: En el principio, Dios creó el cielos y la tierra. Ahora la tierra estaba sin forma y desierta y la oscuridad cubría el abismo y el espiritu de Dios se movía sobre las aguas
It: In principio Dio creò il cielo e la terra. Ora la terra era informe e deserta e le tenebre ricoprivano l'abisso e lo spirito di Dio aleggiava sulle acque.
Let me add the same passage in Portuguese and Catalan:
Pt: No princípio criou Deus os céus e a terra. A terra era sem forma e vazia; e havia trevas sobre a face do abismo, mas o Espírito de Deus pairava sobre a face das águas.
Ct: Al principi, Déu va crear el cel i la terra. La terra era caòtica i desolada, les tenebres cobrien la superfície de l'oceà, i l'Esperit de Déu planava sobre les aigües.
It is interesting that although Spanish is morphologically closer to Portuguese and/or Catalan (e.g. espirito-Espírito-Esperit, sobre as opposed to Italian "sopra", which is not used here), it shares quite a lot of vocabulary with Italian, and the two have also preserved quite similar verb forms. On the whole, I think most people consider Italian to be very close to Spanish because some conjugated verb forms are much alike, and the pronunciation is also very similar - both Catalan and Portuguese have developed phonetic features that make them more similar to French and Occitan (nasalisation, the /zh/ sound, shortened forms of the original Vulgar Latin words, as in "céus/cel/ciel", etc.).
It: In principio Dio creò il cielo e la terra. Ora la terra era informe e deserta e le tenebre ricoprivano l'abisso e lo spirito di Dio aleggiava sulle acque.
Let me add the same passage in Portuguese and Catalan:
Pt: No princípio criou Deus os céus e a terra. A terra era sem forma e vazia; e havia trevas sobre a face do abismo, mas o Espírito de Deus pairava sobre a face das águas.
Ct: Al principi, Déu va crear el cel i la terra. La terra era caòtica i desolada, les tenebres cobrien la superfície de l'oceà, i l'Esperit de Déu planava sobre les aigües.
It is interesting that although Spanish is morphologically closer to Portuguese and/or Catalan (e.g. espirito-Espírito-Esperit, sobre as opposed to Italian "sopra", which is not used here), it shares quite a lot of vocabulary with Italian, and the two have also preserved quite similar verb forms. On the whole, I think most people consider Italian to be very close to Spanish because some conjugated verb forms are much alike, and the pronunciation is also very similar - both Catalan and Portuguese have developed phonetic features that make them more similar to French and Occitan (nasalisation, the /zh/ sound, shortened forms of the original Vulgar Latin words, as in "céus/cel/ciel", etc.).
IMO, the above similarities make it rather easy to learn Spanish after having learnt Italian or vice versa, except that you can easily be tricked by some false friends, or substitute words from one language while actually wanting to speak in the other, especially if they are similar (for example, I regularly substituted "como" for "come" earlier when trying to speak Italian, or used "no conosco" instead of of "non conosco").