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What makes French Latin?
<<As for the British modern studies all point to the basic Iberian - probably basque - origin of most the British genes. Another myth ruined by modern genetics. >>
Galego, this is a very interesting assertion. Do you have a site which details this further? I am interested.
<<"Celtiberian is a mixture of Celtic language and Iberian language. "
This is a common mistake. Celtiberian is a Celtic language in the Iberian peninsula not a mixed of a Celtic and Iberian languages.>> Ok, Errare humanum est, but we don't know much about this language... I'm not sure that Celtiberian was a "pure" celtic language. Iberian is a lot similar with Basque and it's already proved. http://www.webpersonal.net/jrr/ib8_en.htm Map Iberia Populi, ethnographic: http://arkeotavira.com/Mapas/Iberia/Populi150dpi.jpg <<You understood me the first time. Even my dog knows that these areas have little germanic influence. As for the British modern studies all point to the basic Iberian - probably basque - origin of most the British genes. Another myth ruined by modern genetics. >> I don't understand what you said. It's a nonsense. What relations with the Basque and the British peoples? I am BASQUE (i'm named also Irrintzi), what I said later: "A legend said that Julius Caesar moved a legion of Picts and Scottish to invade the rebellious Wasconia, It's with that some people explain the resemblance between the Basques and Scots (morphologically).", was a simple anecdote, a legend. http://ma.prehistoire.free.fr/v.jpg Genetics?http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fr/7/7b/Euskal_genetikoa.jpg With my information, You can look that what you said is a nonsense. read with thoughtfulness that: http://vetinarilord.blogspot.com/2005/07/mtdna-analysis-in-ancient-basque.html http://www.jogg.info/22/Coffman.htm After give me your opinion.
guest. My assertion about the Iberian origin of the British population comes mostly from a study done at Oxford. Here are several links but some of them are based point to the genetic study done at Oxford:
The most revealing is the first map showing the map distribution for haplogroup R1B (in the Y chromosome) in Europe. The connection between the Basques and the British couldn't be more clear. http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/R1b_large_RG.jpg http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=1393742006 http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23367572-details/Ancient+Britons+come+mainly+from+Spain/article.do http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/life_sciences/report-38766.html http://terraeantiqvae.blogia.com/2006/092101-un-estudio-revela-que-los-britanicos-descienden-de-pescadores-ibericos.php
Guest, I signed as Guest. Anyway... if you read the English analysis of the study done at Oxford you could see that some of these newspapers insist in calling Celtic this basic British genetic pool. But I don't think they have read the paper carefully enough. Well... maybe it's not because of the Celts since one of the problems with the British Islands is the relatively lack of Celtic artifacts. So... maybe, just maybe the basic genetic pool is Basque and it has survived invasions by the Celts, the Romans, the Anglo-Saxons and the Viking/Normans. In other words tens of thousands of Anglo-Saxons and a few thousand Normans conquering areas of the British Islands and bringing there new technologies and new languages did not affect much the genetic pool. This might be exaggerated in the case of the British Islands because it is an Island after all and it doesn't seem easy to carry out a massive invasion. Well all of this is my reading. We might have to wait and see a serious analysis of these new facts that modern genetic tools are bringing.
Yes, very true ! the spaniish people are a mediterranean people, a true hispanic/latin people. On the other hand, the french, as their name shows it are Frankish, a german etnicity. It is obvious for everyone.
let's see : - typical frenchman: germanic ! http://www.cannes.fr/svc/php/festival/gallery/2006_05_26/gerard_depardieu.jpg -typical british: the latin lover ! http://www.klast.net/bond/images/connery_col.jpg we don't care if some linguists think the contrary.
"the British are a true mediterranean people". I have troubles understand what is exactly a "mediterranean". I understand that Sean Connery - a fine guy - is more tanned than the average British but is that all? Is it a Basque a "Mediterranean"?
<<- typical frenchman: germanic !
http://www.cannes.fr/svc/php/festival/gallery/2006_05_26/gerard_depardieu.jpg >> Pour un typical frenchman germanic, il a quand même eu pour rôle Cristophe Colomb... http://cinedestin.privatedns.com/films/0-9/1492christophecolomb2.jpg Je connais des espagnols blonds comme des italiens blonds, cela ne veut rien dire.
<<Is it a Basque a "Mediterranean>>
Dans la rue, étant donné que j'habite à la frontière franco-espagnole, beaucoup de français m'adresse en espagnol, parce qu'ils pensent tous que je le suis, car je suis très brun. Mais mon frère est blond aux yeux bleus, ma mère est châtain clair aux yeux verts, mon père a la peau mate et il est brun. ---------------- In the street, I live in the French-Spanish border, many French speak to me in Spanish, they think all I'm a spaniard, because I am very brown. But my brother is fair with the blue eyes, my mother is brown clear with green eyes, my father has the dark skin and he is brown. So the basques aren't mediterranean, they are Basque only. JK, my examples of french with mediterranean aspects: Sébastien Chabal (rugbyman): http://www.sporting-heroes.net/files_rugby/CHABAL_S_20000304_GH_L.jpg Vincent Moscato (Comedian and Rugbyman): http://www.rss-one.com/Thumb/http://www.1001podcast.com/podcast/images/virilmaiscorrect.gif Dany Brillant (Singer) http://www.gouvenelstudio.com/images/deauville/dedicaces/mdedicaces/brillant.jpg Alizée (singer) http://www.ranska.net/musiques-francophones/images/alizee-3.jpg Eric Cantona (football player) http://www.morefoot.com/images_news/Cantona.jpg Patrick Bruel (singer and actor, played in El Lobo ,Nelson the ETA's boss): http://www.cbo-boxoffice.com/full/p12770.jpg Bixente Lizarazu (football player, basque guy): http://getthepicture.free.fr/Portraits/JPG/Lizarazu%20Bixente%20-%20Pascal%20Fellonneau.jpg
<<As for the British modern studies all point to the basic Iberian - probably basque - origin of most the British genes. Another myth ruined by modern genetics. >>
Tis is obviously not correct: Statistical analysis carried out by Dr Thomas and colleagues from UCL (University College London) suggest that the English gene pool is made of between 50 and 100 per cent Anglo-Saxon Y-chromosomes. As you can read following the links below, the recent study suggests that the native Britons were genetically and culturally absorbed by the Anglo-Saxons over a period of as little as a few hundred years, which led to a population of largely Germanic genetic origin, speaking a principally German language. http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/media/proceedings_b/papers/RSPB20063627.pdf http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060720112040.htm
"Tis is obviously not correct:
Statistical analysis carried out by Dr Thomas and colleagues from UCL (University College London) suggest that the English gene pool is made of between 50 and 100 per cent Anglo-Saxon Y-chromosomes. As you can read following the links below, the recent study suggests that the native Britons were genetically and culturally absorbed by the Anglo-Saxons over a period of as little as a few hundred years, which led to a population of largely Germanic genetic origin, speaking a principally German language." Well... I truly don't care much about this issue, I just commented it because it is very very curious and it goes against everything we "know". Dr Mark Thomas evidence seems to be a computer simulation and I don't see any hard numbers and it was probably written before the study from Oxford. My opinion obviously doesn't count much but every time I've visited the UK I thought most British don't look Germanic at all and I do remember watching a BBC program many years ago about the Highlanders and I though "oh my... these people look Basque". I always have troubles believing than a few ten thousand Anglo-Saxons and a few thousand vikings could have affected much the genetic map in England because pretty much the same amount of people from Germanic tribes (between 100.000 and 300.000 according to some estimates) which invaded Spain at around the same time (4th century) didn't have much of an influence here. Read again the links I provided and take a look at the map linked here and let me know your opinion. I understand this issue goes against everything you and me learned in school but the evidence is there and it has to be explained. It is very hard to argue with genetic markers. This one again uses the R1B haplogroup (in the Y chromosome) http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/R1b_large_RG.jpg This one shows the differente Y haplogroups in Europe. Again the "celtic populations in the British Islands" are "indistinguishable from the Basques" - this is exactly the sentence used by the BBC when they reported about this study - and the Eastern Side of England (more influenced by the Germanic and Viking invasions) still shows a strong connection with the Basques also. http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf So... this seems to show that what we call "Celtic" blood in England it might not be Celtic but Basque and I'll state again the Celtic invasion, the Anglo-Saxon, the Vikings small invasion and the Norman invasion have affected very little the basic Basque genetic base in the British Islands. Again... if this study is correct. In other words the first tribe that manages to get to an Island and reproduce for a few thousand years before the next wave has an enormous genetic advantage.
The Article by Dr Thomas and colleagues from UCL (University College London) is based on a genetic studies made by Michael E. Weale et al. (University of London) in 2002 (see full text in
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/7/1008?ijkey=288dc5e4eadfb811dc26dc92a6ce3e06b1671e75 It is shown there that people of Central England has the same genetic features like the Frisian population in northern Germany. The results further indicate the presence of a strong genetic barrier between Central England and North Wales and the virtual absence of a barrier between Central England and Friesland. Perhaps the ancestors of the Welsh and Scots are Basques? Some interesting citations: <<The use of migration as an explanation for cultural transitions has varied greatly over the past 100 years and remains controversial (Clark 1966 ; Chapman 1997 ; Burmeister 2000 ; Shennan 2000 ). Before the 1960s, archaeological evidence for cultural change (such as changes in pottery type) was often interpreted as prima facie evidence for substantial immigration. The processual school or New Archaeology that emerged in the 1960s and 1970s rejected this view, arguing firstly that the adoption of new cultures could occur through trade or by the influx of a small ruling elite with minimal or no impact on the gene pool (the "elite dominance" model of Renfrew [1987 ]) and secondly that if no positive evidence for migration could be found then explanations based on non–migrational internal forces were more parsimonious and therefore preferable (Adams 1968 ; Adams, Van Gerven, and Levy 1978 ). More recently, this antimigrationist stance has been questioned (Anthony 1990 ; Härke 1998 ) and migrational models reconsidered (e.g., Chapman and Hamerow 1997 ; Burmeister 2000 ). ... ... Today, the most hotly debated of all the British cultural transitions is the role of migration in the relatively sudden and drastic change from Romano-Britain to Anglo-Saxon Britain (Hamerow 1997 ; Burmeister 2000 ). This transition was once widely accepted as providing clear evidence for a mass migration from continental Europe and the near-complete replacement of the indigenous population in England (Leeds 1954 ; Myres 1986 ). Stories of migration are included in the writings of Gildas (ca. a.d. 540) and Bede (a.d. 731) and hinted at in Anglo-Saxon sagas, such as Beowulf (Davies 1999 ). Archaeological evidence confirmed a rapid rise of continental culture in England (Esmonde-Cleary 1993 ) and suggested a contemporaneous desertion of continental Germanic settlements. More recently, however, authors have questioned the evidence for large-scale immigration (Crawford 1997 ; Hamerow 1997 ) and continental emigration (Näsman 1988 ; Petersen 1991 ) and emphasized the continuity of the Romano-British population in England. The sudden change to an Anglo-Saxon culture has been attributed instead to rapid acculturation and indigenous developments, with only a small number of Germanic immigrants (perhaps a male military elite) settling in Britain (Arnold 1984 ; Hodges 1989 ; Higham 1992 ). The contribution of Anglo-Saxon immigration to the modern English gene pool thus remains uncertain. >> The conclusion of this study: <<The best explanation for our findings is that the Anglo-Saxon cultural transition in Central England coincided with a mass immigration from the continent. >
Ouest : « The conclusion of this study: <<The best explanation for our findings is that the Anglo-Saxon cultural transition in Central England coincided with a mass immigration from the continent. > ».
À part ça, quel est le rapport avec le sujet ?
Ouest,
Thanks for the link. I'd read it before. It's interesting but it really doesn't draw any conclusions, just possible explanations. Oppenheimer gives numbers for the percentage of genes after the "Basque Invasion" and estimates the Anglo-Saxon blood in between 5 and 10% depending on the area. "Periodic invasions of the British Isles began in the Neolithic Period, when humans took to farming, about 6,500 years ago. But these incursions had little effect on the basic Basque genetic heritage. That heritage is strongest in Ireland, where only 12 percent of the population descends from migrants who came after the Basques. In southern and eastern England, nearer the Continent, the figure is about one-third." "The Anglo-Saxons and the Celts were small immigrant groups. “Neither group had much more impact on the British Isles gene pool than the Vikings, the Normans or, indeed, immigrants of the past 50 years,” he writes. After the Basques, no single migrant wave contributed more than about five percent of today’s genetic mix." This is quoted from here: http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=wq.essay&essay_id=216048 One of the problems with genetic studies is that you have to take a global view and ask new questions, from a genetic point of view. For example ¿what does it mean to be Germanic? If you take a look at this map and go to the European map in the second page http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf .. you can see that the "Basque marker" R1B is predominant in the whole western European including Denmark. So an Anglo-Saxon moving to England in the 4th century had a 50% probability of carrying the "Basque marker". Of course there are methods to have a more detail picture if there are mutations, but the initial problem remains ¿What does it mean to be an Anglo-Saxon from a genetic point of view? If you just look at the "I haplogroup" and call it that the "Germanic marker" since it reaches its highest frequency in Scandinavia you reach very curious conclusions: That the Germanic blood in Germany is in the minority and Ireland is not more Germanic than Spain or Portugal. I am just trying to explain my doubts since these questions have not really answers yet.
germanic or latin is not a question of DNA... there is no gene that say you are latin or germanic. It is a question of language and culture !
English people are of course 100% germanic |