Italian & Portugese Lexical Similarities

Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 3:34 pm GMT
Latin alphabet is based on the Old Italic alphabet, derived from the Greek alphabet. South of Italy was populated by Greek colonies. There are a lot of Latin words of Greek origin.
Latin was born in Italy by fusion of different cultures.

I replay again only if you find something like "The Duenos Inscription" in the Danubian area.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 3:40 pm GMT
Languages never appear from the fusion of different sources. The Latins necessarily brought their language to Italy from Central Europe and there it sufferend minor alterations like some vocabulary of Etruscan or Greek origin.
The Roman alphabet was developed by the Etruscans who inhabited the Italian peninsula before the Romans. The Etruscans chose certain letter shapes of the Greek alphabet and changed a few sound values of the letters to better represent their own language. The Romans took over the Etruscan alphabet for writing Latin and passed it on to all Western European languages.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 3:59 pm GMT
"Languages never appear from the fusion of different sources. The Latins necessarily brought their language to Italy from Central Europe and there it sufferend minor alterations like some vocabulary of Etruscan or Greek origin. The Roman alphabet was developed by the Etruscans who inhabited the Italian peninsula before the Romans. The Etruscans chose certain letter shapes of the Greek alphabet and changed a few sound values of the letters to better represent their own language. The Romans took over the Etruscan alphabet for writing Latin and passed it on to all Western European languages."

So the latin language that we know was born in Italy by fusion of different cultures.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 4:08 pm GMT
One thing is the language proper and another one the script used. Latins didn't know any writing systems until they arrived to Italy and had cultural exchanges with the Mediterranean cultures but that their language was already basically what we know as the Latin language before they migrated to Italy is for sure . Anyway Italian is more evolved from Old Latin than Spanish and Portuguese are. Form example many words from Old Latin like "caesus", which were retained in Portuguese, were replaced during the Classical period by other ones and these are the ones from which Italian words come from. Spanish and Portuguese (also Romanian) preserved archaic Latin better as long as they were less exposed to frivolous innovations in decadent Rome that spoiled the Latin language.
Alessandro   Wed May 28, 2008 4:24 pm GMT
Mai lette tante falsità. Sti tizi sostengono che l'alfabeto non sia parte integrante del linguaggio. Non conoscono la differenza tra il latino arcaico ed il latino classico. Non sanno che moltissime parole latine hanno origine greca (30%). Non sanno che l'italiano è la lingua che conserva il maggior numero di parole latine (75%). Sono animati da doppi fini nelle loro teorie, e soprattutto non è questo l'argomento del topic.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 4:28 pm GMT
Vocabulary is the most changeable part of a language. If you change 100% of certain language's vocabulary, it's still the same. It's not a different one.
Romano de Roma   Wed May 28, 2008 4:33 pm GMT
Guest Vaffanculo.
Guest   Wed May 28, 2008 4:33 pm GMT
Non sanno che l'italiano è la lingua che conserva il maggior numero di parole latine (75%)

But many times these words are spelled differently, while on the other hand other Romance languages preserve the etymological spelling. Aside from vocabulary, which is the least important part of a language, Italian lacks noun declinations and makes extensive use of prepositions, so in cualitative terms Italian is as far from Latin as other Romance languages. It's ridiculous to say that it's closer because it's not.
Guest   Thu May 29, 2008 8:18 am GMT
"One thing is the language proper and another one the script used. Latins didn't know any writing systems until they arrived to Italy and had cultural exchanges with the Mediterranean cultures but that their language was already basically what we know as the Latin language before they migrated to Italy is for sure."

You did a mistake, because Arcaic Latin and Classical Latin are not the same language.
Aldo   Thu May 29, 2008 12:09 pm GMT
Another mistake: the Latin language was not born in "Italy", because Italy, per se, did not exist as a wholly unified country until 1870. Up until then, the peninsula was first comprised of many city states, and later many different regions, whose dialects were not necessarily intelligible to one another (this is still true today). So, to say that the "Latin" language was born in "Italy" is a huge fallacy, because there was no "Italy" until the latter part of the 19th century.
Guest   Thu May 29, 2008 1:38 pm GMT
Latin language was not born in "Italy" - yes. But it was born in "Italic" Peninsula. And the name "Italic" is of... Italic origin (from "vitalos" - calf, "vitellus" in Latin).
Benedetto   Thu May 29, 2008 3:06 pm GMT
"Prove what? It's already well proven by scholars that the Latins were a Danubian tribe that migrated to the Italic Peninsula. Do you pretend us to believe that the Latins didn't speak Latin until they arrived to Italy and acquired a few Etruscan words and their script?"

They spoke an archaic form of Latin. Latin language in classical form was created in Latium region in 1st century BC.

What is now called Latin was a highly stylized and polished written literary language selectively constructed from early Latin, of which far fewer works remain. Classical Latin is the product of the reconstruction of early Latin in the prototype of Attic Greek.
Guest   Thu May 29, 2008 3:08 pm GMT
Italic Peninsula is wrong. One says: Apennine Peninsula.
Guest   Thu May 29, 2008 5:07 pm GMT
<<What is now called Latin was a highly stylized and polished written literary language selectively constructed from early Latin, of which far fewer works remain. Classical Latin is the product of the reconstruction of early Latin in the prototype of Attic Greek.>>

But Romance languages derive from Vulgar Latin, not Classical Latin, Italian included.
tupy   Fri May 30, 2008 6:13 pm GMT
there are genuine differences between the two main varieties of Portuguese:

- Spelling differences:

a) European Portuguese retains some consonants that are no longer pronounced in words like acto, excepto, óptimo. The Brazilian spelling has eliminated those consonants.

b) Some words that Brazilians pronounce with a closed vowel (written â, ê, ô) are pronounced with an open vowel in Portugal (written á, é, ó), and this is reflected in differing spellings.

c) The Brazilian spelling distinguishes between a closed diphtong ei and an open diphtong éi. In Portugal, this distinction is not made, because both diphtongs are pronounced identically.

- Differences of vocabulary: There are vast differences in vocabulary, and sometimes the same word may be employed differently in the two varieties.

- Grammatical differences. The most significant ones seem to be:

a) Regarding the use of personal pronouns. The pronoun tu is replaced with você in most of Brazil, whereas você tends to be avoided in Portugal. A gente replaces nós much more frequently in colloquial Brazilian Portuguese than in Portugal (although it can be found in both varieties).

b) Regarding the distinction between third person subject pronouns and object pronouns. In colloquial Brazilian Portuguese, the subject pronouns ele(s), ela(s), você(s) are often used as objects, where o(s), a(s), lhe(s) would be used in Portugal.

c) Regarding the placement of the clitic personal pronouns. In Portugal, the clitic personal pronouns can come after a verb under some circumstances (enclisis or mesoclisis): "Dê-me um cigarro", "Desculpe-me", "Pode dizer-me...?" They can also be placed before the auxiliary verb, in other circumstances: "Não me pode dizer...?"
In colloquial Brazilian Portuguese, the tendency is to always place the clitic pronoun before the main verb, and between the auxiliary verb and the main verb, in compound tenses: "Me dê um cigarro", "Me desculpe", "Pode me dizer...?", "Não pode me dizer...?"

d) Compound verb tenses of the form "estar + gerund" tend to be replaced with "estar a + infinitive" in most of Portugal.

e) Regarding the use of prepositions. Brazilians sometimes replace the preposition a with em or para with verbs of motion. They occasionally eliminate prepositions or pronouns from verbs that are prepositional or pronominal ("reflexive") in Portugal.