What makes French a Latin-Germanic mixed language

greg   Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:14 am GMT
Leasnam : « that is true, it may "resemble" italian, and Walloon may "resemble" Castilian in a certain feature, but you have not shown a definitive conclusion that the resemblance is related or cognate, or that each comes from Latin. As stated above, English and Spanish both use the present participle -ing/-ando/-iendo the same way, but the uses are not connected. The resemblance does not solidify in my mind, nor should it in anyone's mind, that it comes to each respective language through the selfsame means. »

La phrase que tu citais (page 10) est de PARISIEN, pas de moi, même si j'en savoure l'ironie mordante avec gourmandise... C'était du second degré : PARISIEN reprend les "arguments" de Jesse sur le wallon mais déplace le point de comparaison du groupe germanique à la famille romane. Ce faisant PARISIEN illustre que le cheminement de Jesse n'est qu'une impasse (d'autant que la comparaison syntaxique wallon/allemand exposée par Jesse page 8 est fort mal choisie).
G7   Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:10 am GMT
"Wallon or French are better candidates for latin-German mixtures "


How could processes of language mixing be imagined?
eastlander   Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:17 pm GMT
To G7.Many Walloon(or French speaking) people in Belgium have surnames of Dutch or Flemish origin, many placenames in Wallony ( I don't mean German Speaking Community in East Belgium)are of Dutch or German origin.Walloon language (or French dialect)has many lexical and morfological borrowings from these Germanic languages.
boz   Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:01 pm GMT
Many French (or indeed Belgians) have Polish surnames, does that make the French language part slavic ?
Buddy   Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:34 pm GMT
<<Many French (or indeed Belgians) have Polish surnames, does that make the French language part slavic ? >>

No of course it does not.

The Dutch theory is very different in that the Dutch can be regarded as Modern Franks (or their nearest equivalents at least); and for the fact that much of the modern French speaking areas of Europe were once inhabited or settled by the Dutch and/or their ancestors...
Buddy   Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:41 pm GMT
take for instance Jean-Claude Van Damme, born Jean-Claude Camille François Van Varenberg

it doesn't get much plainer than that
PARISIEN   Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:00 pm GMT
"How could processes of language mixing be imagined?"

Occam's razor and a simple utilitarian approach teach us that languages do not mix and cannot.
Along a linguistic border between language A and language B, some people may become bilingual (which makes them able to communicate with both A and B groups), but nobody would want to operate a A+B mix that would prevent any communication with both A and B groups.

Is Irish English an Anglo-Celtic mixture? Of course not.

Language mixing is theorically possible, but only within a fully isolated environment. Pitcairn island for instance.

Even closely related languages do not mix. In Southern France, the language is strongly influenced by Occitan, nasals are denasalized and all mute /e/ are pronounced like 'ø', people use lots of local words and expressions, but structurally it's still French, not a French-Occitan mixture (similar phenomenons are observed in Upper Bavaria and in virtually all parts of Italy).
Ouest   Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:04 am GMT
"Along a linguistic border between language A and language B, some people may become bilingual (which makes them able to communicate with both A and B groups), but nobody would want to operate a A+B mix that would prevent any communication with both A and B groups. "

The early medieval situation that a whole continent is submerged by Germanic speaking peoples (soldiers and settlers with their families) is something special and quite singular in history - there was no geographic border between language A and language B but a side by side coexistance of Germanics and Romans in Europe. Linguistic borders formed themselves later when political structures (realms) became more stable.
boz   Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:05 am GMT
<<take for instance Jean-Claude Van Damme, born Jean-Claude Camille François Van Varenberg

it doesn't get much plainer than that>>

Well you should be aware that Jean-Claude is in fact from a historically Dutch-speaking part of the country, not from Wallony, so it is a very poor example.

I don't think anyone disagreed that a lot of French-speaking Belgians have a Flemish name. Note that the reverse is true as well.

What is argued is that many others will have Polish names, yet as you admit that does not make the language part slavic. Therefore the mere fact Jean-Claude van Damme has a Flemish name is no evidence of any mixing between Dutch and French.
Guest   Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:30 am GMT
Well said, some people need a few lessons of basic logic before writing nonsenses.
Buddy   Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:47 pm GMT
<<Well said, some people need a few lessons of basic logic before writing nonsenses. >>

It wasn't that well said...
Maybe to you because you *liked* what was said. Therefore you are in a poor position to judge.

and it's "in basic logic" and "nonsense" not "nonsenses"
Guest   Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:04 pm GMT
Logic likes everyone.
Guest   Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:30 pm GMT
<<Logic likes everyone. >>

Logic is cold and impersonal, like germanics.

Les langues romanes savent pas de logique...
Guest   Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:37 pm GMT
<<Logic is cold and impersonal, like germanics.

Les langues romanes savent pas de logique...

>>

Those are cliches. The Romans were not Germanic yet they were quite cold and efficient. That's the reason why their Empire lasted so many centuries. Logic is universal and everyone understands it.
Guest   Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:02 pm GMT
<<Logic is universal and everyone understands it. >>

How socratic