Why do Dutch and Scandinavians speak English so well?

"1. The doctor must be sure the patient made his choice, from his own AND must have thought very well about it.
2. The doctor must be sure the patient has pain which will never be better or solved. Also this pain must be unbearable.
3. The doctor must have explained the situation of the patient and his prospects to the illness.
4. The doctor must be sure together with the patient there's no reasonable other solution.
5. The doctor must have spoken about it with at least one other doctor who has seen the patient and wrote a report about it with the same criteria 1 to 4.
6. The doctor must have helped the patient in a medically correct way."

12345, I know that some people are pushing for Euthanasia as a "human right", but I am not one of them.

Medically, it seems to go against "First do no harm." The cases that I read may be anecdoctal, but it wasn't simply one case. Frankly, it leaves me conflicted in my feelings about Dutch people as I question how anyone who could have suffered under the Nazis (or like me, heard from my elders about it), could allow euthansia for children.

The man in the case I referred to, felt that he hadn't been the best husband and his wife was urging him to die even though I believe the cancer was treatable. In this case, there was the two-step injection. First the medication to put the patient to sleep, then the medication to stop life. As he was being injected with the first medication, he changed his mind, but the physician injected the second medication to end his life anyway.

Regulations don't always work as they should.

I hope you'll continue to post here even though there has been a lot of Dutch hate going around here recently.

What's the big deal with euthanasia? If they want to die so be it, why waste taxpayer money when they'll probably just commit suicide anyway? The world is overpopulated and we should encourage euthanasia rather than discourage it.

I can understand it in !very! specific cases with children.
One of them is very serious cases of spina bifida. If a child has no possibility to a normal life and is both physically and mentally unable to do something I -can- understand the parents.
Also in some cases where the child has no possibility to a normal life, but seriously knows what's going on, mentally (s)he's 100%. Something like that can simply crack a child. Such a child will think:
"If I was normal I could've played football, I could've been treated normally by other people, I could done this, done that".
Does such a child have a normal life? Is it bearable for a child not to be able to play with friends?
I'm not too sure in that..

I was born 10 weeks early and I'm having a very serious hearing problem. Also my intestines were not fully developed and my chance of survive was 1%.

Well I'm alive and I'm kinda fine except with my hearing. But I've also thought: "What am I doing here?" I can't suddenly jump in a pool like other children. Having discussions in real life is very difficult. Being understood by 'normal' people is difficult.
What I have is bearable imo. I just couldn't join swimming immediately. I couldn't join survivals. I can't really go in a canoe, simply cause I feel dizzy without hearing aids in an unstable thing like a canoe.

But someone who's even more handicapped and can only sit in a chair, but can hear normally this time.
I'm not sure if that's bearable. I think such a child would at least try to commit suicide during puberty as (s)he's not able to join anything her/his classmates are joining.

For adults it's just their choice but there has to be a strict protocol. I am not the one who's the boss of their lives.

As you see everyone has other opinions, live and let live. Something those trolls don't know about.

<<Those kids would create an account and continue posting garbage. It's all about moderation.>>

Good point.

"But someone who's even more handicapped and can only sit in a chair, but can hear normally this time.
I'm not sure if that's bearable. I think such a child would at least try to commit suicide during puberty as (s)he's not able to join anything her/his classmates are joining."

Wow! The bar is so low in the Netherlands. It makes me think that the Dutch have really lost their way. I don't mean to imply that people in the US have the moral and ethical highroad, but your post makes me sad, actually. I have known a fair amount of very disabled people in my practice. None of the younger ones has ever indicated that he or she wanted to end it all. I have known young guys with terrible injuries after motorbike accidents and none of them wanted to end it either.

Live and let live is right if you think about it, especially the "live" part.

I agree with KT, it's shocking how the Dutch now view this whole issue. It really reminds me of Nazi Germany and Aktion T-4 when they killed anyone with a disability, mental disorder or illness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4

I've got a couple of friends with disabilities or mental illness and it would be heartbreaking to think their country and fellow humans considered them better dead. I'm so glad not to be Dutch.

People don't consider them better dead. Than you're reading something wrong. In this case it's about quality of life. Has nothing to do with Aktion T4.
Just a question: What would you do if you were so far handicapped you actually can't do anything but sitting in a chair and talking to persons. You can't do things that are exciting because you're glued to the chair.

I consider a physical handicap to be less harmful to people who don't know they're handicapped and think they're normal. They can laugh because they think they're normal. People who know what's really going on and are handicapped are in fact much more prone to have mental problems like being depressed. They know what could have been, where people with both a physical and a mental disorder don't know this mostly.

I know people from both groups. The ones who're mentally equally strong as us, but have a problem physically have depressions more oftenly. They're feeling unlucky because they can't do what they want to do.

As you can see there's imo NO relation with Aktion T4. Handicapped children are in 99.99% just living here. I couldn't kill my child with that stuff. I'm handicapped as well and know you can live with disabilities. But I can understand living with a very disabling handicap can make your life very tough.

I also think Sad should read between the lines and there's no one in the Netherlands want people dead because of a disability or mental illness. Some people believe the quality of life for them is not good enough, because some of these children might get very depressed.

I said I can understand some cases, but I have to nuance that. Now I've been thinking about it, I think you should raise these children and see what becomes of them. When they're adults they can decide themselves what they want. Someone else shouldn't decide for an other person, but only for himself.

<<What would you do if you were so far handicapped you actually can't do anything but sitting in a chair and talking to persons. You can't do things that are exciting because you're glued to the chair. >>


What about people like Steven Hawking? He finds plenty to do in his chair. Should he be killed in your opinion?

So there are lots of exciting things to do sitting in a chair, like writing maths papers. You probably posted your last message while sitting on a chair. Wasn't that exciting? I know I find Antimoon exciting! I was watching TV sitting on a chair before, and before that I was studying in a chair. Yesterday, I was writing a letter in a chair, and before that I was taking a shit, on a chair (with a hole in it). That was pretty exciting.

Blanc read carefully. I don't say they have to be killed.
I just said: What would you do in that situation! Not able to travel. Not able to join in sports. I think especially for people when in puberty such disabilities can be very depressing.

What's troubling is the attitude that if one cannot enjoy everything or almost everything in life, then life is not worth living.

Depression can often be treated.

I've often heard that the biggest problem disabled people face is the attitude of others. If the others all consider your life worthless, and your existence better brought to an end then how could you not feel depressed?

The Netherlands is a very cruel country and society. Aggression, rudeness, egotism, lack of empathy, lack of tolerance (except for prostitution and drugs), are the norm.

They're also very full of hatred: for their neighbouring countries, for those with different religious beliefs, and for anyone who dares disagree with their perfect ways. I speak from experience.

¿Es cierto que hasta no hace mucho cuando los holandeses construían polders enterraban vivo a un hombre para que les diera suerte y no se hinundase el terreno?

>Not able to travel. Not able to join in sports. I think especially for people when in puberty such disabilities can be very depressing. <

Read! Become next S.Hawking.
You could be a Hollywood star and be depressed, depression just has nothing to do with your ability.

«Agree with KT Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:19 pm GMT
I've often heard that the biggest problem disabled people face is the attitude of others. If the others all consider your life worthless, and your existence better brought to an end then how could you not feel depressed?»

That is true. I also feel it myself if someone is speaking in the most stupid way as he thinks I'm an idiot. Than I just ask him to speak to me like he would to any other person.



«The Netherlands is a very cruel country and society. Aggression, rudeness, egotism, lack of empathy, lack of tolerance (except for prostitution and drugs), are the norm

They're also very full of hatred: for their neighbouring countries, for those with different religious beliefs, and for anyone who dares disagree with their perfect ways. I speak from experience. »

No you can't be speaking from experience. I love Germany, UK, Belgium and other countries like many others do. I really wonder where you got the hatred thing from? Just like religion. All religions are allowed, and I can't be bothered to care about someones religion. Religion is a choice or calling. Not something i'm involved in with other people.
I believe the ones who get mad when someone disagrees with them are oftenly people with an extremist religion. These people think because they have a kind of book that they have the copyright on 'the truth'. I'm not getting mad if someone disagrees with me. I get mad if someone has incorrect prejudices ;)! Something very differently.
If I were you I'd explore other parts of the Netherlands as what you describe is absolutely not what I see in my part. Aggression and a lack of tolerance is something I find in everydays traffic. But on the streets I don't see any problem.
Egoism and rudeness isn't something I'm recognizing. Lack of empathy.. Hmm depends from person to person. One is good at it, the other isn't.

«Kitty Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:13 pm GMT
>Not able to travel. Not able to join in sports. I think especially for people when in puberty such disabilities can be very depressing. <

Read! Become next S.Hawking.
You could be a Hollywood star and be depressed, depression just has nothing to do with your ability.»

I think the word -can- shows all in my sentence ;). It differs from person to person, but a lot depends on other people, how they're behaving. Does he/she got friends. If that isn't the case, and a person cannot relieve his feelings and tell them to others someone might easily get depressed.
Depression can be an indirect consequent of someones abilities.

When I was in the Netherlands I stayed with a family who lived in a town without a church. Actually, there was a church, but it had been turned into a museum or an art gallery.

I don't think about Dutch people as being terribly religious or spiritual, but there are some notable exceptions in both the Catholic and non-Catholic spiritual traditions.