Vaya ladrillo, quien se va a leer todo eso?
Which Romance language sounds more Slavic?
Dear Ravinescu thanks for your reply, the fact you don't share (all) my opinions does not bother me at all. I would like you to consider also the following information:
"The Slavic verb usually takes one of three simple tenses (past, present, and future), but it is further characterized by a complex feature called aspect, which can be either imperfective (showing continuous or repeated action) or perfective (denoting a completed action)"
http://www.answers.com/topic/slavic-languages
In many of the old romanian writings I had access to, the past tense of the verbs was insured in some cases by a lost tense: "s-au fost ospatat", for example, expression that could be translated like: "they had been eating" or "they ate", according to context, and satisfies both conditions. This lost tense contains both "to be" and "to have" verbs just like the english "had been". This form has completely disappeared(been cruely deleted :D) from rumanian grammar (I wonder why? :D).
Example:
"- Ia de-ar fi acuma copiii acasa, ar manca si ei acesti carmoji si n-ar mai ramane!(in modern romanian past conditional is used instead of present, daca ar fi fost copiii acasa, ar fi mancat...si n-ar mai fi ramas. )
Dara copiii, care VENISERA PANA ATUNCEA ACASA(shows anterior moment), se temeau sa intre deodata in casa si de aceea S-AU FOST PUS(perfective, had been) sub fereastra sa asculte ce fac parintii lor in casa si ce vorbesc ei."
My english level does not allow me to properly translate this phrase, sorry
http://www.copilul.ro/poveste_Cei_doi_baieti_parasiti_171.html
There are many more adequate examples but im kinda tired and wont search those.
Also you must take into account that Nicolae Iorga clearly stated Sarmatians were Slavs.
On Trajan's column sarmatians (some say tribes like Iazyges or Roxolans) Sarmatians fight together with dacians. Many slav countries(and not only) such as Poland, Bulgaria or Serbia claim descendance from Sarmatians. So the contact of the daco-getae with slavic populations took most likely place very early. In fact Sarmatians replaced "Scythians". Scythians were also present on the territory of Rumania. In fact it is most likely Daco-Getae were in fact Scythians. Populations like Massa-Getae, Tyssa-Getae and also Dahae(Daha, Dakhs) were called "Scythian".
The early daco-slav contact is sustained by the fact that many rumanian words have origins that cannot clearly be identified as proto-slavic or PIE. Like the word "baltă" meaning lake.
On the teritory of medieval Rumania, Goths(see Gepid kingdom) were also present until VI-th century when Slavs also came here and mixed with these populations . All languages from Makedonia to Scandinavia can be qualified as "balto-slavic", "gothic-slavic" or "germanic-slavic", more slavic in eastern Europe and more germanic in the north-west.
Rumania is part of this zone and the language followed its natural evolution. This is also the opinion of Jakob Grimm, one of the Grimm brothers and also eminent linguist and father of the phonetic "Grimm's Law" who thought Getae language was the ancestor of germanic languages, "less germanic and closer to sanskrit" as he says in his book about the origin of German language.
Gothic input in Rumanian language, direct or via Slavonic,:
bleithjan - to have mercy, slav blajenu, romanian blajin - mercifull, good natured
gelgan - eager for money romanian gologan- coin
gothic groba - hole in the ground, german grube - romanian groapa-hole in the ground, albanian grope. For groapă and gologan the romanian DEX gives "unknown origin"
gothic haurn - gorn(rus) - rom "goarna" = (blowing)horn
liuba-like(gothic), lieblih (german), liuba (bulgarian), iubi romanian = to love
nohjan - to give in abundance romanian noian = abundant (j spells like i)
A very interesting word is "mais" in gothic meaning "more" just spanish "mas" or romanian "mai mult". French "mais" means "but"
gothic stikls (cup, drinking horn) -stiklo(slav)- sticla(romanian) mening bottle
gothic stakeins -rus stakan- rom stacana = big cup for beer
I have many more examples that clearly show the gothic-german-scandinavian-slav-romanian relationship.
Also all countries in the Balkans area received at some point some turk input Rumania from Avars, Cumans and Pechenegs, Bulgaria from Bulgars, Russians from Kazacks, for example.
The word "dusman" is present in turkish but also in Persian and Pashto, just like many other turkish words. It is hard to say if some words came into romanian from turkish language or from persian thru scythians.
In fact Eurasia was an area of very active Indo-Aryan-Turkik-Mongol interaction, both linguistic and cultural.
Another example is the word cioban meaning "shepherd" present in turk but also in kurdish and also other countries in the balkan area. A last example is the word "tsarman" meaning leader in pashto, compare with russian word "tsar" meaning king or emperor.
Another problem of rumanian language is the ancient language substrata shared by romanian and albanian language. You must take into account the fact that some scientists believe there was ethnic contact between rumanians ancestors and albanian ancestors before ilyrians arrived.
In fact I think albanians represent the missing link between daco-getae and Phrygians, Trojans(etruscans) and Luwians from Anatolia. In fact Luwian was related to Hittite, a form of proto-latin in fact. Troy fell 1500-1300 b.c, 600-800 years before Rome was founded.
1. My conclusions are that Romania has a very old language substrata shared with albanian and also proto-latin, Luwian and/or Etruscan(some believe etruscans aka Troyans were Luwian. In fact many "latin" words are etruscan, the population of ancient Troy, language heavily borrowd by the "romans".
The best example is romanian word "leu"(dex unknown origin) meaning lion and also romanian currency, word found in 2 forms in etruscan inscriptions: leu and lev with the same meaning.
Most interesting rumanian money are called leu(lei plural) while bulgarian money are called leva, both names having the same origin the word leu/lev meaning "lion"(just check it).
This word most likely gave roman word "leo" meaning also lion. Rumanian linguists reached the conclusion that evolution from latin "leo" to romanian "leu" or "lev" is phonetically impossible. So rumanian leu, bulgar lev and roman leo share common etruscan origin. Etruscan language can offer many interesting surprises also :D.
2. The last and most powerfull linguistic input in rumanian language was no doubt slav. Before the "linguistic cleansing by deletion" from XIX century of course).
Keep in mind also that specialists consider an uneducated person needs an average of 300 words to be able to communicate. At the beginning XIX century the vast majority of rumanian people was illeterate. Also keep in mind the fact that most of "peasant" rumanian words are slav.
3. Romanian french and italian neologisms represent up to 40% of rumanian words. When people say 60-80% of romanian words are latin you must deduct 40% neologisms also present in other slav languages. The form of these neologisms is very similar in pronounciation in romanian, russian and croatian let's say.
4. Sumerian-Persian(Avestan)-Sanskrit-Scythian-Sarmatian-Gothic-Slavic from Eurasia and Hittite-Phrygian-Luwian-Etruscan-Latin from Anatolya are the two magic chains that allows us to understand the genesis of all europen languages. As a general rule, closer the source, stronger the input, but you must take into account that some populations migrated more than others. You add a little semitic input from Mesopotamia and Egypt and mongol-turkik from turks in different dosage and there you have it.
5. If you don't like the fact I call rumanian a slav language then call it slavo-gothic-latin lol, to be more accurate.
This is a very vast topic and I don't think I am keeper of the ultimate truth (although I think I am very close to it :D).
This information could seem very complicated but once you have a map of the area in your mind and also a few historycal facts all becomes crystal clear.
I only tried to provide information that could make you view things from a different perspective.
Another horrible post I guess :D. I did it again lol!
Regards!
"The Slavic verb usually takes one of three simple tenses (past, present, and future), but it is further characterized by a complex feature called aspect, which can be either imperfective (showing continuous or repeated action) or perfective (denoting a completed action)"
http://www.answers.com/topic/slavic-languages
In many of the old romanian writings I had access to, the past tense of the verbs was insured in some cases by a lost tense: "s-au fost ospatat", for example, expression that could be translated like: "they had been eating" or "they ate", according to context, and satisfies both conditions. This lost tense contains both "to be" and "to have" verbs just like the english "had been". This form has completely disappeared(been cruely deleted :D) from rumanian grammar (I wonder why? :D).
Example:
"- Ia de-ar fi acuma copiii acasa, ar manca si ei acesti carmoji si n-ar mai ramane!(in modern romanian past conditional is used instead of present, daca ar fi fost copiii acasa, ar fi mancat...si n-ar mai fi ramas. )
Dara copiii, care VENISERA PANA ATUNCEA ACASA(shows anterior moment), se temeau sa intre deodata in casa si de aceea S-AU FOST PUS(perfective, had been) sub fereastra sa asculte ce fac parintii lor in casa si ce vorbesc ei."
My english level does not allow me to properly translate this phrase, sorry
http://www.copilul.ro/poveste_Cei_doi_baieti_parasiti_171.html
There are many more adequate examples but im kinda tired and wont search those.
Also you must take into account that Nicolae Iorga clearly stated Sarmatians were Slavs.
On Trajan's column sarmatians (some say tribes like Iazyges or Roxolans) Sarmatians fight together with dacians. Many slav countries(and not only) such as Poland, Bulgaria or Serbia claim descendance from Sarmatians. So the contact of the daco-getae with slavic populations took most likely place very early. In fact Sarmatians replaced "Scythians". Scythians were also present on the territory of Rumania. In fact it is most likely Daco-Getae were in fact Scythians. Populations like Massa-Getae, Tyssa-Getae and also Dahae(Daha, Dakhs) were called "Scythian".
The early daco-slav contact is sustained by the fact that many rumanian words have origins that cannot clearly be identified as proto-slavic or PIE. Like the word "baltă" meaning lake.
On the teritory of medieval Rumania, Goths(see Gepid kingdom) were also present until VI-th century when Slavs also came here and mixed with these populations . All languages from Makedonia to Scandinavia can be qualified as "balto-slavic", "gothic-slavic" or "germanic-slavic", more slavic in eastern Europe and more germanic in the north-west.
Rumania is part of this zone and the language followed its natural evolution. This is also the opinion of Jakob Grimm, one of the Grimm brothers and also eminent linguist and father of the phonetic "Grimm's Law" who thought Getae language was the ancestor of germanic languages, "less germanic and closer to sanskrit" as he says in his book about the origin of German language.
Gothic input in Rumanian language, direct or via Slavonic,:
bleithjan - to have mercy, slav blajenu, romanian blajin - mercifull, good natured
gelgan - eager for money romanian gologan- coin
gothic groba - hole in the ground, german grube - romanian groapa-hole in the ground, albanian grope. For groapă and gologan the romanian DEX gives "unknown origin"
gothic haurn - gorn(rus) - rom "goarna" = (blowing)horn
liuba-like(gothic), lieblih (german), liuba (bulgarian), iubi romanian = to love
nohjan - to give in abundance romanian noian = abundant (j spells like i)
A very interesting word is "mais" in gothic meaning "more" just spanish "mas" or romanian "mai mult". French "mais" means "but"
gothic stikls (cup, drinking horn) -stiklo(slav)- sticla(romanian) mening bottle
gothic stakeins -rus stakan- rom stacana = big cup for beer
I have many more examples that clearly show the gothic-german-scandinavian-slav-romanian relationship.
Also all countries in the Balkans area received at some point some turk input Rumania from Avars, Cumans and Pechenegs, Bulgaria from Bulgars, Russians from Kazacks, for example.
The word "dusman" is present in turkish but also in Persian and Pashto, just like many other turkish words. It is hard to say if some words came into romanian from turkish language or from persian thru scythians.
In fact Eurasia was an area of very active Indo-Aryan-Turkik-Mongol interaction, both linguistic and cultural.
Another example is the word cioban meaning "shepherd" present in turk but also in kurdish and also other countries in the balkan area. A last example is the word "tsarman" meaning leader in pashto, compare with russian word "tsar" meaning king or emperor.
Another problem of rumanian language is the ancient language substrata shared by romanian and albanian language. You must take into account the fact that some scientists believe there was ethnic contact between rumanians ancestors and albanian ancestors before ilyrians arrived.
In fact I think albanians represent the missing link between daco-getae and Phrygians, Trojans(etruscans) and Luwians from Anatolia. In fact Luwian was related to Hittite, a form of proto-latin in fact. Troy fell 1500-1300 b.c, 600-800 years before Rome was founded.
1. My conclusions are that Romania has a very old language substrata shared with albanian and also proto-latin, Luwian and/or Etruscan(some believe etruscans aka Troyans were Luwian. In fact many "latin" words are etruscan, the population of ancient Troy, language heavily borrowd by the "romans".
The best example is romanian word "leu"(dex unknown origin) meaning lion and also romanian currency, word found in 2 forms in etruscan inscriptions: leu and lev with the same meaning.
Most interesting rumanian money are called leu(lei plural) while bulgarian money are called leva, both names having the same origin the word leu/lev meaning "lion"(just check it).
This word most likely gave roman word "leo" meaning also lion. Rumanian linguists reached the conclusion that evolution from latin "leo" to romanian "leu" or "lev" is phonetically impossible. So rumanian leu, bulgar lev and roman leo share common etruscan origin. Etruscan language can offer many interesting surprises also :D.
2. The last and most powerfull linguistic input in rumanian language was no doubt slav. Before the "linguistic cleansing by deletion" from XIX century of course).
Keep in mind also that specialists consider an uneducated person needs an average of 300 words to be able to communicate. At the beginning XIX century the vast majority of rumanian people was illeterate. Also keep in mind the fact that most of "peasant" rumanian words are slav.
3. Romanian french and italian neologisms represent up to 40% of rumanian words. When people say 60-80% of romanian words are latin you must deduct 40% neologisms also present in other slav languages. The form of these neologisms is very similar in pronounciation in romanian, russian and croatian let's say.
4. Sumerian-Persian(Avestan)-Sanskrit-Scythian-Sarmatian-Gothic-Slavic from Eurasia and Hittite-Phrygian-Luwian-Etruscan-Latin from Anatolya are the two magic chains that allows us to understand the genesis of all europen languages. As a general rule, closer the source, stronger the input, but you must take into account that some populations migrated more than others. You add a little semitic input from Mesopotamia and Egypt and mongol-turkik from turks in different dosage and there you have it.
5. If you don't like the fact I call rumanian a slav language then call it slavo-gothic-latin lol, to be more accurate.
This is a very vast topic and I don't think I am keeper of the ultimate truth (although I think I am very close to it :D).
This information could seem very complicated but once you have a map of the area in your mind and also a few historycal facts all becomes crystal clear.
I only tried to provide information that could make you view things from a different perspective.
Another horrible post I guess :D. I did it again lol!
Regards!
oh no softpedia clowns moved here
brace yourself for another 1000 pages of nonsense
brace yourself for another 1000 pages of nonsense
It is interesting to note why exactly did "Scoala Ardeleana" tried so much to latinize the language: they were Catholics.
After 1700 most transylvanian romanians living in the northern part of transylvania have converted to greek-catholicism. In Western Ukraine and Belarus after the union of Brest and later the union of Uzhhorod and the creation of the greek-catholic church, catolicization came along strong polonization of the language. In Transylvania this happened along strong latinization of the language and the efforts done by Rome to create a latin catholic identity for the romanian people.
After 1945 all greek-catholics of Romania, Ukraine and Belarus have been "converted" back to orthodoxy by the soviets, also helped by negative experiences with the catholics in the previous century and the previous world wars.
After 1700 most transylvanian romanians living in the northern part of transylvania have converted to greek-catholicism. In Western Ukraine and Belarus after the union of Brest and later the union of Uzhhorod and the creation of the greek-catholic church, catolicization came along strong polonization of the language. In Transylvania this happened along strong latinization of the language and the efforts done by Rome to create a latin catholic identity for the romanian people.
After 1945 all greek-catholics of Romania, Ukraine and Belarus have been "converted" back to orthodoxy by the soviets, also helped by negative experiences with the catholics in the previous century and the previous world wars.
Portuguese and Moldavian Romanian dialects are the more Slavonic-sounding Romance Languages.
There are Slavonic-sounding languages:
1. Continental Portuguese (due to their vowel reduction and/or murder left and right, pronouncing final s and z as Polish sz, dark l pronouncing o as uo and pronouncing e as ie)
2. Moldavian Romanian (due to Russian and Ukrainian influence, they have softening of consonants, pronunciation of e as ie and o as uo)
3. Pashto (you read it right, Pashto. They have dark l, guttural consonants, pronounce uo and ie instead of o and e, but it may have been due to independent development, like Portuguese)
4. Lithuanian (Lithuanians can get angry at this, they have their closest relatives in Belarus, they have been under Poland and Russia according to them, so they want to have nothing to do with them)
There are Slavonic-sounding languages:
1. Continental Portuguese (due to their vowel reduction and/or murder left and right, pronouncing final s and z as Polish sz, dark l pronouncing o as uo and pronouncing e as ie)
2. Moldavian Romanian (due to Russian and Ukrainian influence, they have softening of consonants, pronunciation of e as ie and o as uo)
3. Pashto (you read it right, Pashto. They have dark l, guttural consonants, pronounce uo and ie instead of o and e, but it may have been due to independent development, like Portuguese)
4. Lithuanian (Lithuanians can get angry at this, they have their closest relatives in Belarus, they have been under Poland and Russia according to them, so they want to have nothing to do with them)
5. Albanian (listen to the song "Këtu Shkëlqen Plisi" that was used in the OBB in "Borat's Guide to Britain", and for an Anglophone, it can be mistaken for a mix of Portuguese, Slavic and English, but then, it had something to do with the Balkan Sprachbund)
In short, Moldavian Romanian, Lithuanian and Albanian have the Slavonic accent due to influence, while Pashto and Portuguese have it independently. Pashto's intonation and vowels make it sound Russian.
In short, Moldavian Romanian, Lithuanian and Albanian have the Slavonic accent due to influence, while Pashto and Portuguese have it independently. Pashto's intonation and vowels make it sound Russian.
Romanian election ad against the current president:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOaz01CkUN0
he still won though :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOaz01CkUN0
he still won though :D
@Aszykbajew
I disagree, Portuguese has nothing to remind me of Russian. And Pashto sounds like Turkish with some Arabic words thrown in for good measure, again very different from Russian.
Moldovan Romanian on the other hand, sounds indeed Slavic, but that's because 40% of the speakers are native Russians/Ukrainians, so it is very natural to be that way.
I disagree, Portuguese has nothing to remind me of Russian. And Pashto sounds like Turkish with some Arabic words thrown in for good measure, again very different from Russian.
Moldovan Romanian on the other hand, sounds indeed Slavic, but that's because 40% of the speakers are native Russians/Ukrainians, so it is very natural to be that way.
Continental Portuguese politician
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC3buBN67y4
Moldavian Romanian politician
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoPuE5TFGZA
Pashto comedy on stage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPN5CnK4OwY
Lithuanians having fun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVlZBEneQyg
Albanian song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOTfL4fagoc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC3buBN67y4
Moldavian Romanian politician
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoPuE5TFGZA
Pashto comedy on stage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPN5CnK4OwY
Lithuanians having fun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVlZBEneQyg
Albanian song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOTfL4fagoc
To an untrained ear, these guys are likely to sound like they all speak a dialect of Russian or Polish or some sort of Slavonic language.
Most common Slavonic conversations:
Polish ladies debating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAqU-T-TXGI
Russian politicians debating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGHrhSuie2s&feature=related
Polish ladies debating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAqU-T-TXGI
Russian politicians debating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGHrhSuie2s&feature=related