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Which Romance language sounds more Slavic?
Here is the genetic map of Europe:
http://i48.tinypic.com/qrbr4m.jpg
The predominant Russian and Ukrainian haplogroups are R1a and I2a, both of which have a large share in Romania but which are almost inexistent in the Latin world (Spain, France, Italy, Portugal). Regarding the other haplogroups, the "southern" haplogroups in Romania come most likely from the Balkans and Greece, not from Latin Europe. Compared with Bulgaria and Serbia, Romania has more R1a. Moldova is not included but I assume that they are an intermediary between Romania and Ukraine.
@Original Guest
R1a is shared by Balto-Slavic and Greek populations. These populations split thousands of years ago, it's just that the haplogroup R1a cannot distinguish between them. Romanians being a Balkanic population took these R1a traits from Greeks/Macedonians.
The same goes for I2a. This haplogroup is called Dinaric/Danubian, implying traits of the Balkanic/Danubian population, which again cover Romania as well. Yes, some Slavic population share it, but those are mostly from the Balkans. It's presence in Romania does not prove Slavic influence, unless you believe that Sardinians are Slavic (almost 50% of the Sardinians belong to the I2a haplogroup).
These are the major haplogroups in the Romanian population:
24% J2 (Minoan Greek, Phoenician)
22% R1b (Italic, Celtic, Germanic)
22% R1a (Mycenaean Greek, Balto-Slavic)
17.5% I2a (Dinaric/Danubian)
E1b1b 6% (Balkanic, North African)
In other words Romanians are a mixed population of all major Balkanic haplogroups. Balkanic/pre-Slavic traits are far more prevalent than the Slavic ones (around 15% of the Romanians have Slavic traits).
<<22% R1b (Italic, Celtic, Germanic) >>
R1b is Iberian-Basque.
@Dan
The fact that R1a comes from Eastern Europe it is a well established fact, it doesn't come from Greece. It's presence in Romania also comes from Eastern Europe. Now, if the Russians, Ukrainians and Belorussians have 50% R1a, how many of them does it take to have 22% in Romania? I would say that it would require quite a lot of population.
Give me a break with these genetic studies! I'm a Greek and I suggest you to go to Greece (I'm living outside the country now), and I bet, you won't find in Greece population anything, but anything what resembles the Russians or Ukrainians...
Think about it: what gives the colors of the skin,of the eyes,the hair the body size etc? The genes, isn't it? Put a Greek, an Italian or a Romanian near a Russian or Ukrainian and compare their physical appearances. You cannot ignore these type of evidences just by sticking to so called "DNA studies and results". Who did those studies? What people sample has been studied? "Romanians' from Moldovan Republick? Greeks from St. Petersburg?
I know for sure that we, the Greeks have common genes with the south Italians, and I am able to tell you that not by DNA studies, but by the high similarities in look, behavior, temper etc. I don't trust these DNA studies, at this moment of time. They are not convincing at all and not well controlled. They contradict the commonsense, you cannot swallow such stupidities...
I don't think that if Romanians had been of Slavic origin would not recognize that. Why would Latin origin give them higher reasons for a national pride than would have been given by their potential Slavic origin? The Slavic people are extremely valuable people and their multiple nations did prove that throughout the history. Think about Russian, Czech's, Poles,Serb-Croatian, etc culture; their contribution to the world science, literature etc. There is no reasons to dislike being of Slavic origin but you cannot say something out of the truth and I assume that that's the reasons why they are calling themselves of Latin origin...
It is interesting that foreigners are always knowing better what a nation's origin is, than that nation itself; isn't that funny?
About us, it has been saying that are of Turkic origin and have nothing to do with our ancient fore-fathers. That determined me to interfere in this forum. There are always people out there who tell others who their own "parents" are? They know better then me who my sister is, who my father or grandfather were etc...isn't that interesting? Why re you guys doing that?
Dan said, based on that idiocy (DNA study - by the way, learn how reliable these studies are at this moment first):
"These are the major haplogroups in the Romanian population:
24% J2 (Minoan Greek, Phoenician)
22% R1b (Italic, Celtic, Germanic)
22% R1a (Mycenaean Greek, Balto-Slavic)
17.5% I2a (Dinaric/Danubian)
E1b1b 6% (Balkanic, North Africa"
And were the heck are Thracian traces, guys? In the remaining 9%? Are you kidding ?
Herodotus mentioned the Thracian populations as being the most numerous ones after the Indians and they lived in north and south of Danube, having us as the only southern neighbors, Sarmatians in the north/north-east , (in the present Ukraine), stretching them from west (actual Bratislava) over the Nistre, close to the Niper rivers. By having said that, are you trying to convince anybody that from such a numerous population who once occupied almost the entire Balkan and Carpathian regions, didn't remain any genes in the actual population of Romania? (Or Bulgaria, Hungary etc)? What if those " predominant Russian and Ukrainian haplogroups " mentioned by "original Guest" are in fact Thracian traces found in Russian blood? Maybe that is explaining the common blood shares between Romanians and Russians, don't you think?
E kala...come on...stop making speculations, let's be serios and try to learn something useful here!
@OriginalGuest
Then how many Russians/Ukrainians were mixed with Greeks so that 12% of the Greek population belongs to R1a? None, obviously. The genetic traits of R1a is shared by two distinct populations: Greeks/Thracians and Balts/Slavs. Since Romanians inherited far more genes their Greek/Thracian ancestors (the haplogroups list proves this) it is very likely that most of the Romanians in the haplogroup R1a have Greek characteristics rather than Slavic ones.
And one more thing. An individual from a Western haplogroup (like R1a) comming to Romania from a Slavic country does not add Slavic genetic material to Romanian population, but Western. So when are talking about genealogy, it does not matter how many Slavic language natives moved to Romania, but how many of them actually carried Slavic genes. Well, apparently not so many, less than 15%.
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Christodoulou said:
Give me a break with these genetic studies! I'm a Greek and I suggest you to go to Greece (I'm living outside the country now), and I bet, you won't find in Greece population anything, but anything what resembles the Russians or Ukrainians...
Think about it: what gives the colors of the skin,of the eyes,the hair the body size etc? The genes, isn't it? Put a Greek, an Italian or a Romanian near a Russian or Ukrainian and compare their physical appearances. You cannot ignore these type of evidences just by sticking to so called "DNA studies and results". Who did those studies? What people sample has been studied? "Romanians' from Moldovan Republick? Greeks from St. Petersburg?
====================
I agree with you, a higher dose of common sense is required while reading these genetic studies. Romanians share their physical traits with Greeks and Italians (except for the dark skin), not with Russians or Ukrainians. In the end it is only normal that Romanians share common traits with people living a couple of hundred of kilometers away instead of a couple of thousand of km.
The problem with these genetic studies is not the samples used but the fact that most of the haplogroup markers chosen so far do not distinguish well the populations that live in neighboring countries, which basically nullifies their advantages for the research on population migration. Nevertheless, they should not be abandoned, but improved. The researchers should replace the markers for the haplogroups with others that are better discriminators. And BTW, Thracians were considered to belong to the R1a, J2 and I2a groups.
Do these genetic studies have something to do with an accent?
Bravo Nico from Portugal speaking up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC3buBN67y4
Notice his name being pronounced as "Bravnik" and hear that there are a lot of schwa, trilled r, dark l, weird and fiendishly difficult consonant clusters, the Russian jery, and all those harsh Polish sz and Russian uo and ie.
Voronin from Moldavia taunting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoPuE5TFGZA
Listen to the Russian jery and the schwa, with the Russian ie and uo.
Lithuanians having a drunk dive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVlZBEneQyg
The intonation and the trilled r, along with the dark l, sh and zh sound Slavonic. A Turk can mistake it for Russian and Polish, which for them, is not the softest, but the harshest sounding Slavonic language.
"Këtu Shkëlqen Plisi", a folk song from an Albanian-speaking territory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOTfL4fagoc
This song was used in Borat's Guide to Britain, and to English ears, is not that different from Russian due to the trilled r, sh, ch, zh, some weird, though fiendish (to English ears) consonant clusters, and dark l. They have the schwa sound.
Musafar comedy show on stage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPN5CnK4OwY
This dialect of Pashto has hints of Slavic intonation. The strong io sounds amazingly close to the way the Russians pronounce it. Moreover, the strong ae of the Pashtuns who live near the Pakistan-Afghanistan border sounds like the a of an angry Russian or a Russian ja inserted between soft consonants.
Other than that, it sounds like it has hints of Arabic, Romani (listen to Chaje Shukarije by Esma Redzhepova or watch the start of Borat movie), Farsi and Albanian. The song can be barely mistaken for Albanian but mistaken for sung Arabic and Hindustani, but the speech can be mistaken for Russian.
Do these genetic studies have something to do with an accent?
Maybe they have. Spaniards and Portuguese have different genetics and thus different accent.
To Christodolou.
"It is interesting that foreigners are always knowing better what a nation's origin is, than that nation itself isn't that funny?"
You arrogance is only matched by your stupidity, greek. You keep on going with your garbage pseudo-science . Have you been in Romania? Do you know how rumanians look like? My whole family has blond or light brown hair and blue eyes unlike the greek black curly hair. Go to Moldova, Transylvania, Maramures there are lots of fair(blond, light brown, or red) haired people with blue eyes. Even in Valahia the most common hair colour is (dark or light)brown.
I agree greeks share with italians the Hg(Y)Dna J2 afro-semitic DNA. Igenea gives for Romania 0% J DNA(just check) so get lost and stop giving us lessons. And Makedonians or Arumâns are not greek but Vlach, Vlas, Vlaska, latinized slavs just like us.
Rumanians look similar to Bulgarians ROFLMAO. What rumanians are those?
I guess the 8000(official figure, but there are much more ethnic bulgarians in Rumania) rumanian citizens of bulgarian origin look like bulgars. You know why? Because they are bulgarians LOL. Also the 100.000 russians and ukrainians living in Rumania look like russians, 1.4 million hungarians living in Rumania look like hungarians.
Also did you know that the 2242 rumanian citizens of chinese origin look like chinese people?
There are also about 50.000 serbians, croatians, poles and czechs living in Romania. And I am sure they look like serbians, croatians, poles and czechs LMAO. Also 50.000 ethnic germans and 50.000 ethnic turks and tatars. These figures represent those who declare their ethnicity as such but but the numbers of those assimilated in mixed marriages is much higher, greek.
There are also like 6000 greeks in Rumania. Perhaps those 6000 represent our "latin" legacy. There are also 500.000 gypsies here and I guess those dark haired, dark eyed and "olive" skin people are also greek-latin legacy. The "thin(crooked) nosed" greeks and the "thick necked" bulgars (as our national poet Mihail Eminescu (born Mihail Eminovici, "latinized" later)) described them, ARE NOT Rumanians, never have been and never will be.
Just for fun, some DNA samples, from a study that shows Dniester-Carphatian Area(Ukraine, Rep.Moldova, Rumania, Serbja - the starting point of Kurgan culture (5000 years old) of the first indo-european people - that makes Us your fathers, greek) shows remarkable uniformity.
Rumanians from Cărăşani Village(Rep.Moldova):
Hg(Y)DNA I (I1a+I1b+I1c) 23%, R1a 35%, R1b 17%, total 75%
Rumanians from Sofia village(Rep Moldova)
Hg(Y)DNA I 26%, R1a 20%, R1b 17 % total 63%
Rumanians from Buhusi Rumania, Piatra Neamtz)
Hg(Y)DNA I 40,7 %, R1a 30%, R1b 16 % total 86,7 % (where is ure letin legacy, greek?)
compare with
Ukrainians (Rashkovo) - Hg(Y)Dna I 20,8%, R1a 41,5%, R1b 19% total
80%
So more Hg I as you go west towards Balkans and less R1a and more R1a as you go east towards Russia. In Croatia and Bosnia Hg I (dinaric race, Trakian, oldest of Europe- bow to your fathers, greek) reaches peaks as high as 80-90 %, while R1a reachs highest peak in Poland (about 56%). So you can safely say Hg I + R1a = slav(slavo-baltic-scandinavian in fact) DNA unless you deny croats being slav, which you can't.
Data comes from: "Population History of the Dniester-Carpathians:
Evidence from Alu Insertion and Y-Chromosome Polymorphism Dissertation der Fakultät für Biologie der Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München by Alexander Varzari.
You can find full text at http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=981561349&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=981561349.pdf.
Note that Piatra Neamtz comes from Nemec or Nemetz meaning german
Also from unreliable wiki some data for Persia:
Iran(North Iran) I 6,1% R1a 15%
Iran(Tehran) I 20% R1a 8,0%, E1b1b 34%. You got some E1b1b in ure blood too greek just like italians, turks and rumanians(just a little bit, from roman legions maybe) and pretty much everyone else in south Europe. That is african DNA not latin, since Rome was unable to defeat our Persian cousins.
Only typical italic DNA is J2 and only you and italians have that in high proportion (up to 30%). I guess you are just as latin as they are, greco-romans afro-semitic brothers ROFLMAO. Luckily for italians the kelts sacked Rome (just like Alaric, god bless his soul! :D) and settled in central and N Italy making present day italians 50%(R1b) kelts. You weren't that lucky, greek.
@Ruman,
Stop pretending you are a Romanian. You are a Russian or Ukrainian from Rep. of Moldova with some knowledge of Romanian.
You offer as proof for your thesis that Romanians have Slavic origins the dissertation of some Russian guy about the genetic make-up of the Moldovian population. Who in his right mind would spend time on the work of someone who believes that in early medieval times Moldova was inhabited by slavs, and Romanians came later??
Besides, how did he decide that the village of Buhus is representative for the genetic make-up of the Romanian population? What kind of cr@p is this? I will tell you what it is. It is the kind of pseudo-science concocted by Voronin and his cronies meant to keep him in power in Moldova. It did not serve him much though, he lost the power.
Oh, and by the way, I am Romanian and yet, in Bulgaria I have been asked by Bulgarians for directions, whereas in Ukraine I have been asked on the street if I wanted to exchange currency. And I have fair hair too, it did not seem to matter. Wherever I went in the Balkans, my group was pretty much ignored by the locals, whereas in Ukraine, it sticked out like a sore thumb. Christodoulou is very much right when he is talking about physical appearances.
Ela Malaka, did you get swine flue, moron? (ruman)? Every European nations has people with blond hair and blue eyes, we too, the Greeks, believed it or not.
From you peroration we've learned something new, today: the Romanians are in majority blond and blued eyes ed. That's Interesting because although I met some, I didn't see any similarities between them and the north-Europeans...as you tend to suggest....not even when they blond colored their hair. I am not saying that they might not be such individuals but who cares? They are everywhere, in Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, France...what's the point? What is this telling you? Do you know how Spartacus looked like? Do you know who Spartacus was? Do you know how Plato looked like?
I am not as specialist as you are and I posses no capabilities to research people's genes as you prove to have; I am just a practical man. I'm judging what I see and touch. If you continue to insist on your malakis, you will end up convincing ( beside me), other people too how idiot somebody could be. And that's my last answer for you. I don't like hysterical individuals. Make you point if you can, if not , behave!
And yes, from the way you jump on me and especial from the accusation you made, I don't think that you are Romanian. You are a proud arian - blue-eyed idiot as perfect as Hitler was!
Best regards, moron!
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