=>v.l.q.l = Vive Le Québec Libre isn't it? <=
wow, you ARE smart! Here have a cookie...
wow, you ARE smart! Here have a cookie...
Vive Le Quebec libre
=>v.l.q.l = Vive Le Québec Libre isn't it? <=
wow, you ARE smart! Here have a cookie... >=
Fuck off Sander
wow, you ARE smart! Here have a cookie... >=
Fuck off Sander
Aldebaran
When you say
"Ok that might work with French people (in Corsica and Brittany cases) but what are you going to do when a non French people (Quebecois, Spaniard, Italian, Romanian, Portuguese, Mexican, Peruvian, Brazilian for example) shouts "v.l.q.l", that cases of Corsica and Brittany will not work with them (us) , I'm really curious what are you going to say to them (us). "
What specific situation are you talking about?
When you say
"Ok that might work with French people (in Corsica and Brittany cases) but what are you going to do when a non French people (Quebecois, Spaniard, Italian, Romanian, Portuguese, Mexican, Peruvian, Brazilian for example) shouts "v.l.q.l", that cases of Corsica and Brittany will not work with them (us) , I'm really curious what are you going to say to them (us). "
What specific situation are you talking about?
Steve K
I'm talking about specific cases of cultural supression in other Latin countries like the example of Corsica and Brittany in France.
For example: The cultural supression of indigenous people in Latin america by european descendant citizens.
Or the problems that Spaniards have with the basque country in Spain.
The struggle between northen Italians and southern italians.
B.T.W is true that there are some troubles regarding indigenous people in Québec? since Québec in a cultural and linguistic way is part of Latin america (even that for political reasons is not considered, plus the fact that is only a province with very few population in a massive English speaking country) that would be ironic.
By the way I must say that here in Mexico there's another issue about independence states, we have passed the independence of Texas, Alta California, etc, etc, etc, but now there's the Chiapas issue, maybe you are thinking why do you say: "let go Québec out of Canada", if you don't allow Chiapas to be independent and you are right.
Thus I must say that if the price to show Québec our support is give Chiapas full independence from México then so be it. Let's prepare two new seats at the United Nations one for Québec and other for Chiapas.
I know this is an inner Canadian issue that only Anglo Canadians and Quebecois can resolve, and we must respect that, but I can say my opinion in the same way other countries say their opinions about "Chiapas" or "Palestine" or "The war of Iraq" or in the past the posture of England and France about the independence of Texas and if you want to know my opinion is: A Québec independant for the sake of both: Canada and Québec.
I know lots of Anglo Canadians are going to hate me, but I cannot remain without saying nothing.
Canada is a wonderful country without Québec.
I don't know if the Quebecois are victims or not, but what I know is that the Quebecois and Anglo Canadians are so much different that they deserve a nation of their own, both of them.
I'm talking about specific cases of cultural supression in other Latin countries like the example of Corsica and Brittany in France.
For example: The cultural supression of indigenous people in Latin america by european descendant citizens.
Or the problems that Spaniards have with the basque country in Spain.
The struggle between northen Italians and southern italians.
B.T.W is true that there are some troubles regarding indigenous people in Québec? since Québec in a cultural and linguistic way is part of Latin america (even that for political reasons is not considered, plus the fact that is only a province with very few population in a massive English speaking country) that would be ironic.
By the way I must say that here in Mexico there's another issue about independence states, we have passed the independence of Texas, Alta California, etc, etc, etc, but now there's the Chiapas issue, maybe you are thinking why do you say: "let go Québec out of Canada", if you don't allow Chiapas to be independent and you are right.
Thus I must say that if the price to show Québec our support is give Chiapas full independence from México then so be it. Let's prepare two new seats at the United Nations one for Québec and other for Chiapas.
I know this is an inner Canadian issue that only Anglo Canadians and Quebecois can resolve, and we must respect that, but I can say my opinion in the same way other countries say their opinions about "Chiapas" or "Palestine" or "The war of Iraq" or in the past the posture of England and France about the independence of Texas and if you want to know my opinion is: A Québec independant for the sake of both: Canada and Québec.
I know lots of Anglo Canadians are going to hate me, but I cannot remain without saying nothing.
Canada is a wonderful country without Québec.
I don't know if the Quebecois are victims or not, but what I know is that the Quebecois and Anglo Canadians are so much different that they deserve a nation of their own, both of them.
Steve K : ce n'est pas parce que tu es à court d'arguments sur le Québec qu'il faut étaler ton ignorance des réalités françaises.
Aldebaran
French speakers are not suppressed in Quebec. There are disputes over minority language rights for the anglophones, political jurisidictions between Quebec and Canada, land ownership rights etc. with the aboriginals and so on. You are not in much of a position to support anyone in these internal issues, which you have little knowledge about.
Quebecois are also culturally similar to Anglophone Canadians with whom they share an environment, institutions, sports, history etc. They share some language, religion and some cultural traits with certain other Latin Americans but they are more similar to other North Americans.
There is no irony, as you put it, in the fact that the francophone Quebecois have disputes with other groups in their society. These kind of tensions between cultural and national groups exist in most countries in the world. I have no opinion on the Chiapas issues and have no idea about the relationships between different groups in Mexico and therefore venture no opinion.
The French proportion in Canada is just less than 25%, so hardly " a very few compared to a massive Anglo country" as you describe it. French-Canadians are very active within Canada at many levels and are not a suppressed or underpriviledged group. There are nevertheless many areas of friction and dispute with regard to political and group rights and priviledges. This is all quite normal. Most countries in the world consist of more than one national group. Very few countries consist of just one national group. If Quebec separated there would still be many French-Canadians in Canada and English-Canadians in Quebec. There would still be no pure national state for anyone.
French speakers are not suppressed in Quebec. There are disputes over minority language rights for the anglophones, political jurisidictions between Quebec and Canada, land ownership rights etc. with the aboriginals and so on. You are not in much of a position to support anyone in these internal issues, which you have little knowledge about.
Quebecois are also culturally similar to Anglophone Canadians with whom they share an environment, institutions, sports, history etc. They share some language, religion and some cultural traits with certain other Latin Americans but they are more similar to other North Americans.
There is no irony, as you put it, in the fact that the francophone Quebecois have disputes with other groups in their society. These kind of tensions between cultural and national groups exist in most countries in the world. I have no opinion on the Chiapas issues and have no idea about the relationships between different groups in Mexico and therefore venture no opinion.
The French proportion in Canada is just less than 25%, so hardly " a very few compared to a massive Anglo country" as you describe it. French-Canadians are very active within Canada at many levels and are not a suppressed or underpriviledged group. There are nevertheless many areas of friction and dispute with regard to political and group rights and priviledges. This is all quite normal. Most countries in the world consist of more than one national group. Very few countries consist of just one national group. If Quebec separated there would still be many French-Canadians in Canada and English-Canadians in Quebec. There would still be no pure national state for anyone.
In a sense I agree with Steve K about the fact that quebecers are not oppressed anymore in Canada, (even if he said inapropriated comparisions about Corsica and Britany with Quebec).
Quebec is not at all an oppressed province; French-Canadians are a big part of Canada. Canada is a state where French is officially in equality with English , even is, due to the presence of the giant anglophone USA just 20 miles from Montreal, french is in a very minority at north American level. But being independant won't change this fact anyway.
In the past the french Canadians had been really badly treated, but since 40 years, they fight to have a recognition and autonomy at the Quebec's provincial level, and they can live their lives in the french-speaking society they decided that Quebec would be; If they want independance they'll have it, if not they'll stay in Canada - let them choose.
Quebec is not at all an oppressed province; French-Canadians are a big part of Canada. Canada is a state where French is officially in equality with English , even is, due to the presence of the giant anglophone USA just 20 miles from Montreal, french is in a very minority at north American level. But being independant won't change this fact anyway.
In the past the french Canadians had been really badly treated, but since 40 years, they fight to have a recognition and autonomy at the Quebec's provincial level, and they can live their lives in the french-speaking society they decided that Quebec would be; If they want independance they'll have it, if not they'll stay in Canada - let them choose.
greg me dit
"ce n'est pas parce que tu es à court d'arguments sur le Québec qu'il faut étaler ton ignorance des réalités françaises" et pour moi la discussion avec toi est terminee. Je reconnais le genre.
Par contre la suppression historique des droits culturels des Bretons and des Corses est un fait indeniable. Je ne dis pas pour autant que cela veut dire que ces gens doivent poursuivre l'independance. Je pense qui'il faut toujours essayer de vivre dans le present et ne pas trop essayer de rallumer des anciens griefs ou juger les actions prises dans des circonstances qui n'etaient pas les notres. Mais il ne faut pas non plus nier la veritee.
"ce n'est pas parce que tu es à court d'arguments sur le Québec qu'il faut étaler ton ignorance des réalités françaises" et pour moi la discussion avec toi est terminee. Je reconnais le genre.
Par contre la suppression historique des droits culturels des Bretons and des Corses est un fait indeniable. Je ne dis pas pour autant que cela veut dire que ces gens doivent poursuivre l'independance. Je pense qui'il faut toujours essayer de vivre dans le present et ne pas trop essayer de rallumer des anciens griefs ou juger les actions prises dans des circonstances qui n'etaient pas les notres. Mais il ne faut pas non plus nier la veritee.
Aldebarán ,
=> I know lots of Anglo Canadians are going to hate me<=
Hate you?! But you have such a great personality!
=> I know lots of Anglo Canadians are going to hate me<=
Hate you?! But you have such a great personality!
" Thank you for providing proof of what I said. Most French people have only scorn for the suppressed languages and cultures of Corsica and Britanny, or for any expression of independence by those people. Gallic scorn is usually directed to anyone who is not so keen on speaking French including Flemish speaking Bleigians, German speaking Swiss, and of course English-Canadians. It is all a port of their cultural chauvinism which is, to most non-French people, simply a laughable delusion of grandeur. I say that as a francophile and fluent French speaker with great admiration for so much of the achievements of French culture and as someone who regularly enjoys visiting France.
But the truth is that in France the cultural cleansing was essentially completed long ago. Just a little research on the Internet yielded the following information, somewhat different in tone from Guest's position. "
I am sad you seem not able to see the difference between nowadays problems and history facts. the reality of Quebec linguistic particularities is a event of today... The harsh suppression of linguistic rights you speak about in France are facts that date back between one or two centuries (by the way, this "unification" was began by a Corsican man called Bonaparte).
So, in your logic we should insult Italians because of the harsh suppression of the Gaul language and culture the Roman did 2000 years ago. Or we should blame United-statians because of the harsh suppression of native indian languages, cultures and PEOPLE (wich happened about at the same time of the "oppression on Brittany and Corsica").
We should blame spanish people for the harsh suppression of the languages and culture of a whole continent. We should blame the Anglo-saxon invaders who destroyed and replaced the celtic-roman culture of Great Britain... We should blame the english for the harsh suppresion of arboriginal culture and people in Australia, we should blame the arabs for the harsh supression and the aculturation of the people of north africa and near east during arabo-muslim extension, etc...
It would be stupid... this is history facts !!
What you said is as stupid as if I thought that Californians, Louisianans, middle-westers, Texans or Floridians were a distinct people that "should be not oppressed by the chauvinict central governement of USA and should be respected and liberated" from it for the unique reason that 200 years ago these lands were not english speaking (not even American yet).
But the truth is that in France the cultural cleansing was essentially completed long ago. Just a little research on the Internet yielded the following information, somewhat different in tone from Guest's position. "
I am sad you seem not able to see the difference between nowadays problems and history facts. the reality of Quebec linguistic particularities is a event of today... The harsh suppression of linguistic rights you speak about in France are facts that date back between one or two centuries (by the way, this "unification" was began by a Corsican man called Bonaparte).
So, in your logic we should insult Italians because of the harsh suppression of the Gaul language and culture the Roman did 2000 years ago. Or we should blame United-statians because of the harsh suppression of native indian languages, cultures and PEOPLE (wich happened about at the same time of the "oppression on Brittany and Corsica").
We should blame spanish people for the harsh suppression of the languages and culture of a whole continent. We should blame the Anglo-saxon invaders who destroyed and replaced the celtic-roman culture of Great Britain... We should blame the english for the harsh suppresion of arboriginal culture and people in Australia, we should blame the arabs for the harsh supression and the aculturation of the people of north africa and near east during arabo-muslim extension, etc...
It would be stupid... this is history facts !!
What you said is as stupid as if I thought that Californians, Louisianans, middle-westers, Texans or Floridians were a distinct people that "should be not oppressed by the chauvinict central governement of USA and should be respected and liberated" from it for the unique reason that 200 years ago these lands were not english speaking (not even American yet).
Just looks what happens with the 'french superiority' when you take it to their turf. Lol
Tiens, je viens faire un petit tour sur ce forum...je vois que le débat fait encore rage ;)
Steve K,
permets-moi de te dire que tu es un bel hypocrite. Tu prétends que c'est le Canada qui devrait se séparer du Québec, et non l'inverse? Alors, pourquoi n'organisez-vous pas un référendum? je suis très impatient de voir ça :))
La vérité, c'est que très peu d'anglos souhaitent que le Québec se sépare du Canada, même si, par devant, ils s'enorgueuillissent du contraire.
Peux-tu me dire ce qui restera du Canada lorsque le Québec sera indépendant? Entre les provinces de l'ouest très conservatives qui se sentent de plus en plus différentes du reste du pays, l'Ontario très populeux et les provinces maritimes géographiquement séparées? et je ne parle même pas des territoires comme le Nunavut....
Permets-moi d'être assez sceptique...de toutes manières ce ne sont pas mes affaires.
Tu n'es pas sans savoir qu'il existe une crise d'identité au Canada anglais? Je suis désolé de te dire ça, mais culturellement parlant, le Canada anglophone n'est qu'une pâle copie de son voisin américain. Vous ne vous distinguez en rien des Etats-unis. 95% des films diffusés dans les cinémas du canada anglophone sont américains, 90% d'entre vous vivent à moins de 120 km des Etats-Unis, vous faites régulièrement du magasinage aux Etats-Unis, vous écoutez la radio et la télévision américaines etc...
Qui sait, aujourd'hui dans le monde, que des acteurs comme Keanu Reeves, Jim Carrey, Pamela Anderson ou encore Mike Myers sont canadiens? Pratiquement personne! Tout le monde pense qu'ils sont américains.
C'est bien là votre drame! Vous n'avez pas de culture spécifique. Je pense d'ailleurs qu'un habitant de Vancouver se sentirait plus chez lui à Seattle qu'à Toronto. De même un Torontois se sentira plus chez lui dans le Michigan.
En revanche, nous québécois sommes une société distincte avec notre langue, notre propre culture, notre cinéma, nos artistes. C'est bien cela qui vous rend si amers.
Nous avons ce qui vous fait défaut: une identité culturelle.
Je pense connaître la France aussi bien que toi, et sérieusement, comparer les cas corse et breton avec celui du Québec est tout ce qu'il y a de plus ridicule. La langue bretonne n'est (ou plutôt n'était) parlée que dans le Finistère et la partie occidentale du Morbihan. On n'a jamais parlé breton à Rennes, ni à Saint-Malo, ni à Nantes (capitale historique de la bretagne). On y parlait le gallo, une langue d'oïl proche du français. Par ailleurs, le breton n'est pas une langue unifiée puisqu'il existe plusieurs dialectes et l'immense majorité des bretons se sentent français.
Je vois que tu fais référence à Patrick Le Lay. Tu sais, c'est aussi cette même personne qui a déclaré que TF1 était une chaîne destinée à préparer les cerveaux à boire du Coke. C'est cette même personne qui dirige la chaîne TV la plus pourrie de France avec des émissions de télé-réalité plus minables les unes que les autres. Et il ose parler de génocide culturel...il n'est pas vraiment crédible.
J'espère que tu sais également que la mouvance indépendantiste bretonne (ultra-minoritaire) a entretenu des liens étroits avec les nazis pendant la seconde guerre mondiale. Je te conseille vivement de te renseigner...
En Corse, les nationalistes sont une minorité aux idées plus que douteuses (racisme, xénophobie...) et aux méthodes les plus abjectes (mafia, terrorisme, racket...). A mons avis, c'est surtout le caractère insulaire de la Corse, et les difficultés économiques qui en découlent, qui créent un malaise. Il y a, de toutes façons, beaucoup plus de corses qui vivent sur le continent que sur l'île (Marseille est la "première ville corse") et ça ne crée aucun problème.
Une comparaison entre le Québec et ces deux régions françaises n'est donc pas envisageable, alors ne détourne pas le sujet s'il te plaît.
Steve K,
permets-moi de te dire que tu es un bel hypocrite. Tu prétends que c'est le Canada qui devrait se séparer du Québec, et non l'inverse? Alors, pourquoi n'organisez-vous pas un référendum? je suis très impatient de voir ça :))
La vérité, c'est que très peu d'anglos souhaitent que le Québec se sépare du Canada, même si, par devant, ils s'enorgueuillissent du contraire.
Peux-tu me dire ce qui restera du Canada lorsque le Québec sera indépendant? Entre les provinces de l'ouest très conservatives qui se sentent de plus en plus différentes du reste du pays, l'Ontario très populeux et les provinces maritimes géographiquement séparées? et je ne parle même pas des territoires comme le Nunavut....
Permets-moi d'être assez sceptique...de toutes manières ce ne sont pas mes affaires.
Tu n'es pas sans savoir qu'il existe une crise d'identité au Canada anglais? Je suis désolé de te dire ça, mais culturellement parlant, le Canada anglophone n'est qu'une pâle copie de son voisin américain. Vous ne vous distinguez en rien des Etats-unis. 95% des films diffusés dans les cinémas du canada anglophone sont américains, 90% d'entre vous vivent à moins de 120 km des Etats-Unis, vous faites régulièrement du magasinage aux Etats-Unis, vous écoutez la radio et la télévision américaines etc...
Qui sait, aujourd'hui dans le monde, que des acteurs comme Keanu Reeves, Jim Carrey, Pamela Anderson ou encore Mike Myers sont canadiens? Pratiquement personne! Tout le monde pense qu'ils sont américains.
C'est bien là votre drame! Vous n'avez pas de culture spécifique. Je pense d'ailleurs qu'un habitant de Vancouver se sentirait plus chez lui à Seattle qu'à Toronto. De même un Torontois se sentira plus chez lui dans le Michigan.
En revanche, nous québécois sommes une société distincte avec notre langue, notre propre culture, notre cinéma, nos artistes. C'est bien cela qui vous rend si amers.
Nous avons ce qui vous fait défaut: une identité culturelle.
Je pense connaître la France aussi bien que toi, et sérieusement, comparer les cas corse et breton avec celui du Québec est tout ce qu'il y a de plus ridicule. La langue bretonne n'est (ou plutôt n'était) parlée que dans le Finistère et la partie occidentale du Morbihan. On n'a jamais parlé breton à Rennes, ni à Saint-Malo, ni à Nantes (capitale historique de la bretagne). On y parlait le gallo, une langue d'oïl proche du français. Par ailleurs, le breton n'est pas une langue unifiée puisqu'il existe plusieurs dialectes et l'immense majorité des bretons se sentent français.
Je vois que tu fais référence à Patrick Le Lay. Tu sais, c'est aussi cette même personne qui a déclaré que TF1 était une chaîne destinée à préparer les cerveaux à boire du Coke. C'est cette même personne qui dirige la chaîne TV la plus pourrie de France avec des émissions de télé-réalité plus minables les unes que les autres. Et il ose parler de génocide culturel...il n'est pas vraiment crédible.
J'espère que tu sais également que la mouvance indépendantiste bretonne (ultra-minoritaire) a entretenu des liens étroits avec les nazis pendant la seconde guerre mondiale. Je te conseille vivement de te renseigner...
En Corse, les nationalistes sont une minorité aux idées plus que douteuses (racisme, xénophobie...) et aux méthodes les plus abjectes (mafia, terrorisme, racket...). A mons avis, c'est surtout le caractère insulaire de la Corse, et les difficultés économiques qui en découlent, qui créent un malaise. Il y a, de toutes façons, beaucoup plus de corses qui vivent sur le continent que sur l'île (Marseille est la "première ville corse") et ça ne crée aucun problème.
Une comparaison entre le Québec et ces deux régions françaises n'est donc pas envisageable, alors ne détourne pas le sujet s'il te plaît.
"conservatrices", pas "conservatives" lol.
ça fait une semaine que je parle uniquement en anglais pour un stage...j'en perds mon français.
ça fait une semaine que je parle uniquement en anglais pour un stage...j'en perds mon français.
The posts by various francophones confirms what I said. They are unwilling to recognize the aspirations for cultural recognition of the Corsicans and Bretons while delighting in insulting English speaking Canadians. They want to talk about historical "injustices" in Canada but are deeply offended when the even more thorough suppression of language and culture in France is mentioned.
For all the talk of the poor Quebecois being oppressed, in fact that historical oppression was less thorough than that practiced in many other countries where cultures clashed after conquests. That is why the Quebecois control their destiny today and speak French today as the main language of education and work,and the Corsicans and Bretons do not. Today it is the majority francophones of Quebecois who deny linguistic rights to the minority anlgophones.
Sebastian,
It is not for you to tell English Canadians what kind of a sense of identity they have or should have, nor for me to tell you how to feel as a Quebecois. Not every country needs to be linguistically different from its neighbour to feel a sense of identity, not in Latin America, not in German speaking Europe, not in South East Asia or anywhere. National identity is subjective.
As for a separate Canada succeeding, I think it would do just fine. There would either be an arrangement Quebec or with the US regarding travel and trade. Since I assume the departure of Quebec would happen under friendly terms I cannot see why any Quebec government would stand in the way of the free flow of goods and people into and across its borders.
Canada's present preoccupation with pandering to Quebec dilutes our sense of identity in many ways. We end up with an unending string of Quebecois Prime Ministers. People who grow up without any contact with French are obliged to be bilingual to get top jobs in the Federal Public Service and so francophones dominate in government and on and on.
Getting rid of Quebec would cause an upheaval and raise many thorny issues. That is why most people cannot be bothered. Nor is there any consitutional way to kick Quebec out. But a lot of people I know would love to get rid of Quebec.
As for the history of Britanny and Corsica, please read my posts with an open mind. If the Corsican nationalists had connections with the Nazis, so did the Finnish resistance, the Irish,etc. just as the INdian independence movements had ties with the Japanese. As Mao said, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". It does not help your argument to denigrate other independence movements. There is little honour in the history of the FLQ and its bombs and assassinations.
For all the talk of the poor Quebecois being oppressed, in fact that historical oppression was less thorough than that practiced in many other countries where cultures clashed after conquests. That is why the Quebecois control their destiny today and speak French today as the main language of education and work,and the Corsicans and Bretons do not. Today it is the majority francophones of Quebecois who deny linguistic rights to the minority anlgophones.
Sebastian,
It is not for you to tell English Canadians what kind of a sense of identity they have or should have, nor for me to tell you how to feel as a Quebecois. Not every country needs to be linguistically different from its neighbour to feel a sense of identity, not in Latin America, not in German speaking Europe, not in South East Asia or anywhere. National identity is subjective.
As for a separate Canada succeeding, I think it would do just fine. There would either be an arrangement Quebec or with the US regarding travel and trade. Since I assume the departure of Quebec would happen under friendly terms I cannot see why any Quebec government would stand in the way of the free flow of goods and people into and across its borders.
Canada's present preoccupation with pandering to Quebec dilutes our sense of identity in many ways. We end up with an unending string of Quebecois Prime Ministers. People who grow up without any contact with French are obliged to be bilingual to get top jobs in the Federal Public Service and so francophones dominate in government and on and on.
Getting rid of Quebec would cause an upheaval and raise many thorny issues. That is why most people cannot be bothered. Nor is there any consitutional way to kick Quebec out. But a lot of people I know would love to get rid of Quebec.
As for the history of Britanny and Corsica, please read my posts with an open mind. If the Corsican nationalists had connections with the Nazis, so did the Finnish resistance, the Irish,etc. just as the INdian independence movements had ties with the Japanese. As Mao said, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". It does not help your argument to denigrate other independence movements. There is little honour in the history of the FLQ and its bombs and assassinations.