the French vs. the Franks

I haven't edited nor re-read:
research, actual area, Latin

Jordi,

I don’t necessarily support the entire Republican dogma (and reality) that I briefly displayed above. Nor was I sycophanting France’s objective exceptionalism towards linguistic policy-making. In that field the French Republic, it does appear, differs indeed conspicuously from all its neighbours. I haven’t said that this original feature makes France great – let alone a better country than the rest ; I merely hinted that French republicanism has caused official monolinguism first to triumph, then to endure. Then I suggested that any attempt at invigorating French Occitanophony that isn’t thought out in concert with French officialdom is meant to fail. Not because French authorities are right. Instead, because they think they are right and because they’ve got the power. You may call this attitude cynicism, hexagonalism, neo-jacobinism, defeatism or anything ending with –ism. I’m afraid it’s the only pragmatic approach left, though. Now, allow me to disclose my personal hate or indifference or love for Occitany a bit later.

In the mean time, would it be too demanding that this kind of statements – intendedly neutral, albeit peculiar and disheartening I admit – be regarded so, not as a poor duplication of what the French brainwashing system would expect its mesmerised citizens to trot out tirelessly ? As a matter of fact, the ‘légion d’honneur’ mood you adduced is undoubtedly entrenched in the souls of certain French-like types. Even so, rest assured not everyone here neither fail to figure out nor feel comfortable with the impalpable mind-prepacking being served in profusion through schooling, media etc. Grassroot people (ie: ‘civil society’ as French officialese has it) are no pliable morons : I believe them (including me) to be quite capable – if need be – of generating their own distantiated analysis on a cost-benefit basis.

Occitan is an issue obviously subject to distantiated, individual analysis : it is a vexed topic. I believe your assertion that even most passionate Occitanists are actually feeling very French to be right. How else could they do without falling into the trap of elated idealism, procuring much inner strength and outer flamboyance but yielding too few concrete results ? I don’t know what the Occitanist agenda is. Still, in a confused way (I couldn’t utter a single sentence in Occitan although I’m able to understand most of it when reading very carefully), I’ve got the feeling there might be two politic orientations. The most ambitious one would be calling for a genuinely State-supported endeavour to restore at least partial literacy or fluency among all people living in the South, or perhaps among those who’d want to. This could be done in many ways, but the safer ones would require the logistical contributions of school and academic systems – both bodies are under close governmental scrutiny. Needless to say that option isn’t French public powers’ cup of tea. A less vocal alternative might consist in promoting Occitanophony as a substantial input to French cultural-wealth management, entailing no direct political, organisational implication but preferably based on a more business-focussed, entrepreneurial multi-content project. In my opinion, the apparently low-profile option is the best, fastest way to wake up the Sleeping Beauty without triggering the dormant wrath of her former – yet still disproportionately outpowering – northern rival.

Among France’s languages you mentioned as being “still breathing”, none has been depicted otherwise than belonging to “transnational border lines”. However, such is not the case of Breton. Brittany is adjacent to no Spain or Germany and Breton is thriving all the same. Chances are that the private-run, Diwan-school infrastructure, for instance, may have be efficient enough to expand Breton-proficiency rate without being detrimental to French Republican orthodoxy. Likewise, I’m not certain Corsican is an endangered language even if Corsican isn’t spoken anywhere else out of Corsica except in Marseilles, Nice, Toulon or Paris.

I’m not that surprised a majority of Alsatian youth can speak German – or a variant of Alemanic, to be more specific. Many young Alsatian first-jobbers used to commute twice daily to neighbouring Germany or Switzerland where, in addition to Standard High German, the local dialects spoken belong to the Alemanic family as Alsatian too does. Now the unemployment rate is 12 % in Germany – that is 2 points higher than France and 4 points higher than Alsace – Switzerland only is likely to remain attractive – thus linguistically influential – to young Alsatian job-seekers (especially the area around Bâle – Basel – Basilea).

You also evoked what position I would be in when confronted with an “organised murder” (the deceased being Occitan I presume). Well, in my view, the murder has been perpetrated long before I could see my mother’s smile for the first time. That doesn’t mean I feel discompassionate towards Occitan. As a Southerner myself, nothing could be less true. Rather, I regard Occitan as something of the greatest significance, but I regard it as a French-speaking person. My native language is French, not Occitan. My homeland is what used to be Occitany rather than France, but my heart speaks French. It would be a thousand times easier for me to live, now, in an English- or German-speaking environment than in a putative Occitan background. That said, I’d be delighted to learn Occitan and speak it, provided naturally there’s somebody else out there, in the Francophone streets of Marseilles or Toulouse or Bordeaux, ready to hear me chatting in Oc.

Again, I’m convinced the resurgence of Occitanophony is less linked to feelings (mines or those of Occitanists or French Republicans) than to economic dynamism. All major Southern cities are booming compared to Northern average performance. Although Provence-Alpes-Côte-d’Azur and Languedoc-Roussillon (soon Septimany ?) are hit by endemic unemployment, new business rate and overall education level are comparatively higher than in the rest of the country. The Toulouse area is vigorously expanding. So is the Bordelais, to a lesser extent. Nice has been gathering tons of cash for ages. Demographics look pretty well anywhere along the Garonne river and the Mediterranean littoral. The transport infrastructure is good and will be optimal once a Transoccitan TGV is launched along the Canal du Midi up to the Golf of Lion. Perhaps the key to further Occitanising is available somewhere between Perpignan and Barcelona. Once Catalogne and Southern France become a bit more integrated by business, enhance each other’s prosperity and appear to be money-making role-models for other European transnational areas, then, all of a sudden, you’ll see Marianne thinking twice about her rigid orthodoxy.

Dear Greg,
My most sincere congratulations for that piece of handsome writing. It had been a long time since I had read such a piece of good thinking from a French intellectual, regarding issues which are such a great part of France. I may not agree with every single word but I certainly feel a great respect for anybody able to say so much.

I'm sure that the Occitan issue would only win positions with such a clear minds as yours. I was born in Marseille of Catalan speaking parents and I was brought up in Australia until we returned to Catalonia. I've always felt a great love for France.

I, although the native speaker of a closely related language, Catalan, and not holding a French passport nor emembering having ever felt French, have been able to practice my Occitan (and my French, even more so) in Occitania.

I started to learn the language as a very young college student. The people with whom I've practiced the language are not only activists, university professors or Occitan writers. I remember conversations with mature farmers just a few miles from the Vieux Port in Marseille and I remember practicing my Occitan at the market at Albi, near Toulouse. I have spoken Occitan in Carcassone and near Saint Sernin, in the heart of Toulouse. I remember a summer, long ago, in Apt in the deepest Provence, uttering words in Occitan to a beautiful Occitan girl; and I still keep an Occitan book with a "dédicace" from another beautiful Occitan speaking girl in the Alps. I was young and had so much to learn.
I'm now in my fourties and I have two young children and I still keep contacts in Provence and I'm still young in so many ways, and I have lots of younger and older friends.
I look forward to my next summer visit to Provence. I'm sure I will hear the language and the reason is not only because I speak it (quite fluently and dialectal provençal, at that) it's also because I want to hear it.
Thank you for your text. I will keep it.

Occitan lives!

http://www.geocities.com/fotografiaoc/

(In road signs at least)

Regarding American English's use of the word "latino" to designate people from Central and South America, the term is used in a clearly American context, and in common usage, does *not* apply to anyone or anything beyond the Western Hemisphere. American English would designate a Frenchman, or a Romanian, or a Spaniard as a "European", not a "latino".

My hunch is that latino/latina entered American English from the colloquial (English) usage of Central and South American immigrants in the United States. In other words, latino/latina is how these people have referred to themselves whilst in the US. For example, I have a girlfriend, from El Salvador. She describes herself as a "latina".

Ten or fifteen years ago, the most common way to refer to these people was as "Hispanic". But, for some reason, latino/latina seems to be easier on the ear, and more polite; and, my theory is that this is the term these people have preferred. The fact that their self-applied term has become part of mainstream American English simply indicates their growing acceptance and assimilation into mainstream North American society - a good thing, wouldn't you agree?

I would...

the problem is that the word "latin" (latino in spanish or italian) exist since a long long time before the arrival of immigrants from south and central america in the US. In America, a new meaning was given to this word. It didn't bother us so much since it was used that way only in the American continent. the problem is, with american cultural and mediatic influence, this meaning is spreading in all the world, even in latin Europe. Most of ourselves are now brainwashed and obliged to lef their latin identity. Due to american english domination we are now forced to accept of not consider ourselves as latins (latinos, latini...in spanish or italian)... it is like if our identity had been stolen...

<<we are now forced to accept of not consider ourselves as latins>>

On the other hand, you might be exagerating a bit. ;-)

I agree with Some French Guy. Globalisation is the best way to nuance extra-European platitudes subject to some currency, even in Europe herself.

Please keep it simple, greg. Your posts are a bit of chore to read. All those highfalutin words are meaningless when used improperly, and tiresome when used excessively.

correction: "a chore"

Chère Ms. Crabtree,

Désolé pour ce désagrément. Une alternative en guise de palliatif : soit j'écris dans ma langue, soit tu t'abstiens de me lire. Ca te va ?

I would like to congratulate Greg for his use of the English language always full of meaning and always used properly. It can only tire those who, perhaps, have a bad time, not so much following his words but his thoughts.

By the way, his French is as good as his English.

I'm ready for whatever Ms. Crabtree might want to say (don't you worry Geg, she just can't take it) but I can assure you it won't hurt me at all since it is far more important to thanks Greg for his contributions.

By the way, I would like to thank everybody in ANTIMOON for the past year or so I've been with you. It has been very useful since it has enabled me to write quite a few lines in English about different subjects.

Unfortunately, I will not be able to come in any longer since some very important work will keep up all my time and I've decided to focus on my new project.

Thank you very much and I wish ANTIMOON all the luck in the world. Somewhere in Catalonia somebody will remember you all.

Thanks, Jordi....and pop in once in a while if you've got some spare time.

"The only "etnic" group from wich the french people link itself outside of the latin one is the celtic group. In the past, the french schools were learning to kids "nos ancestres les Gaulois" (our ancestors the Gauls)"

Actually,before celtic invasion,there was already inhabitants on french territory.Then a celtic invasion: so there was a mix between old peoples and celtic invaders.Then roman conquest.Gallic people, as they are called by romans,are under the influence of roman culture.They lost the celtic culture.They took the latin mentality.Then frankish invaders in the last time of roman empire.Roman politic is: in exchange of advantages in roman empire (lands,citizenship...),barbarian are integrated in roman army.It's an assimilation policy to maintain roman empire.So frankish people are assimilited by roman empire .But in the last time of this empire, there is no more control from Rome.Frankish people controls a territory (around Paris),they applly there the roman law they have assimilated.Then they extend their territory.It's feudal time.
French are more latins than germans,except Bretons and Basques (Vascons).

mabden, breton an european.