the French vs. the Franks

What is so Latin about Normandy, French Flanders, Artois, Ile-de-France, Champagne etc., except the language? People grow and drink wine, but that is done in Southern Germany, too! People have a midday break and hot lunch, but that is similar in much of Germany, too!

People in Normandy drink cider! How Latin is that?

Yes of course, I don't deny the fact that the romans mixed with the locals gauls. And yes I LOVE Astérix (Lol). The heritage of France is called "Gallo-roman". So why don't you say the same about the spanish and the portuguese. Before the roman invasion the population were celtic too!!

As for the welsh or the irish people, well maybe rugby is not really popular in Norway, but just take a look at the welsh team or the irish one. You will understand what I mean. Many of them are redheads.

I don't understand what you mean by "central France". Of course, France has always been a "crossroad" of differents european civilizations because of its central geographic position. But it has always belonged to "the latin world". You can't imagine the hatred which exists between the english and the french for example.
The country which has the more in common with us culturally is certainly Italy. Jean Cocteau said: "Les Italiens sont des français de bonne humeur". It means "french people are nothing but italians in bad mood". He meant that we share almost the same culture but the french always grouse, contrary to their italian cousins (lol). I have to admit it's a bit true: We are always grousing, we're always on strike...etc

Fredrik, you wrote:
"Italian and Spanish are closer to Latin than French is.
This may be because:
- Italy and Spain were more familiar to the homeland of the Romans (Latium), so they colonized it more thoroughly
- The influence of the Germanic migrations was smaller in Italy and Spain than in France"

Absolutely not!! French is much closer to italian than spanish is. Spanish has a lot of arab heritage. Every words in spanish which start with "al-" are arab. the "j" in spanish is also arab. Every linguists around the world say that french and italian are the closest romance languages. I can't speak italian, but when I hear them speak I understand them. French and italian are "twins languages". In spain the wisigoths (germanic tribe) built a kingdom and I've already said that Spain was arab during 8 centuries (can you imagine??)

Of course linguistically the French are Latin / Romance, but ethnically I would say Gallic, just like the Spanish are Latin - Iberian.

"Ok, we stop talking about Latin "ethnicity". Instead we should say Latin culture and Latin language."

I agree, it is what I wanted to hear, being latin is not a question of "ethnicity" but of culture. I think you are incoherent with what you said. I remind you that were there the first who begin to say that the french were not latin "ethnically" while the Italians and spanish would be. Iremind you what you said : "Of course linguistically the French are Latin / Romance, but ethnically I would say Gallic, just like the Spanish are Latin - Iberian."

So let's speak about culture and languages.
"if Latin culture is defined as western Mediterranean culture then Italy, Southern France and Spain would have Latin cultures"
southern and northern france have the same culture, I'm sorry. Same language, same main catholic religion. The main difference is the climate and the lancapes. I agree that provence look like very much to Italy, while Normandy look like to england. But lanscapes and culture are really two different things.
Some regions of Italy or Spain don't look like at all this mediterranean stereotype : galicia and asturias in Spain look like irish landscapes. Piedmont and lombardia look like austrian or german landscapes... but still latin regions...


"- Italy and Spain were more familiar to the homeland of the Romans (Latium), so they colonized it more thoroughly
- The influence of the Germanic migrations was smaller in Italy and Spain than in France"

Unfortunally you still full of misconceptions. As I said previusly, Spain was not depply setteled by romans because of a too dry climate and also because of excentric geographical position. remenber that France is closer to Italy (we have border with them, while spain has no borders with Italy and is much farther from Rome tah Gaul was, and planes didn't exist at this time !)
There have been migrations to Spain and Italy. Don't forget that the first spanish kingdoms were funded by germanic tribes. even the south of spain have been settled by germanic tribes (andalucia name comes from "vandals"(vandalucia). The same in Italy. Later, Sicilians have been settled by vikings (your ancestors too), like normandy have been.

krako, tu es d'ou ? ça fait plaisir de voir quelqu'un sur la même longueur d'onde que soi. Surtout sur le theme de la latinité. Je trouve qu'en France ajourd'hui il est presque devenu tabou de revendiquer notre latinité... et c'est dommage.

Salut Fabrice!!

Je suis de Bordeaux. En fait tout comme toi, je suis plus qu'exaspéré de toujours voir les Français exlus "du monde latin". Je tiens à te dire que ce forum et globalement anti-français (voir le topic sur les french). Il y a quelques pauvres types qui prétendent que l'occitan est la langue de tous les méridionaux; et malheureusement ils ont réussi à convaincre les étrangers que c'était vrai et que la France (comprends Paris dans leur bouche) opprimait ses minorités. Moi je suis né à Bordeaux, et ma langue maternelle est le français, mais maintenant Y a rien à faire, le mal est fait, presque tous les étrangers du forum s'imaginent que les "occitans" dont je ferais partie sont des opprimés; et ça me gonfle!!
Et toi t'es d'où??

Well, I mostly agree with you. We should say:
France: Gallo-Roman
Spain: Ibero-Roman
Italy: Italo - Roman
Portugal: Lusato-Roman ???

Linguistically and culturally all of you are Latin. But France is the bridge between Southern and Northern Europe. Today there is a common French culture in all France, but historically there has been a big divide between North and South in France. People in Normandy are not as warm-blooded, hot-tempered, life-enjoying, amourous as people in Provence, Languedoc etc, I think. The famous French "raison" does not seem very Mediterranean!

I am an amateur in Romance languages, but to me Spanish and Italian look more similar. Casa, si, gracias/grazie etc.
But I can see the phonetic similarities between French and Italian (giorno / jour), and also that written French shows that French used to be much closer than today's spoken French is.

"pauvres types qui prétendent que l'occitan est la langue de tous les méridionaux"

Hmm, I don't know much French, but are you talking about the poor guys who pretend that Occitan is the language of all Mediterranean France?

I think you guys are very post-1789 French, when France tried to establish a uniform French culture in all of France. England and Germany were the big enemies, so France had to prove that it was exclusively Latin and not Northern European at all!

Il est évident que les français sont un peuple latin. Fredrik peut dire ce qu'il veut; nous parlons une langue qui est directemen issue du latin. Mais ce qui m'énerve le plus, c'est qu'à l'entendre l'invasion romaine en Gaule se serait passée de la manière suivante: "Salut les gaulois!! Nous sommes les Romains, bon on ne fait que passer, tenez on vous donne notre langue, débrouillez avec."

Bon, c'est vrai j'exagère, mais on a l'impression, à l'entendre, que les romains n'on fait que passer en Gaule. La "Narbonnaise" était une région romaine avant la péninsule ibérique me semble-t-il! et Il devrait peut-être visiter Arles, le pont du Gard, ou Nîmes pour en avoir un aperçu!

"What is so Latin about Normandy, French Flanders, Artois, Ile-de-France, Champagne etc., except the language? "

You take wrong exemples. you speak about regions that are considered to be "borderline" between latin and germanic culture. (excepted ile-de-France)
These regions (flanders, alsace, lorraine, artois...) were of germanic culture until France integrated them definitively and latinized them quite recently. They became of french culture because they've been uput under french unfluence quite recently, and so, remain some germanic aspects.
But I can assure you that there is absolutly nothing germanic about Ile-de-France, Auvergne, Loire Valley, Limousin, Aquitaine, Rhone-alpes, Provence, Poitou, Corse, languedoc, etc...
As for Normany, they don't represent the tipical french either. In France, when joking we say that they're just Swedish or norway people .. and it is not so far from reality because thay are partly of vinking ancestors.

One question : If we apply your thinking completly, we have to exclude all Portugal of the latin group because it is not a mediterranean country. We should exclude galicia, asturias, navarra, castilla la mancha or even madrid because they are not mediterranean regions... we shoul exclude piemont and lombardia from the latin group too. And, of course we should excmude completly all romaina because it is not at all mediterranean and not even catholic...

So what is the rest ? some coasts along the mediterranean are latin for you ?... think about it

Yes Fredrik I was talking about "the poor guys who pretend that Occitan is the language of all Mediterranean France".
I'm from southern France, I can't take that some people like you who doesn't know france at all allow themselves to maintain that occiatn is our mother tongue. Here it's just folklore!!
Your knowledges about this question only come from some extremist point of view of guys like "vincenç" who represent nobody in southern France!!

I am fully aware of the fact that most people in Southern France speak French and not Occitan. I suppose Occitan is mostly spoken by older, rural people.

Even though there are several borderline regions, I have to say that Bourgogne and the Bourgignons (I have been there!) reminded me more of Southern Germany than of Spain or Italy.

Fredrik,
in this forum, there is a big problem!!

Some guys have convinced the non french people that in south of France people are prevented from speaking occitan, that occitan is our mother tongue. Well I have never spoken occitan, and I never met someone able to speak it. Moreover, occitan doesn't exist contrary to what you think because it is not a standardized language; from a region to another one, the vocabulary is different, the spelling too, and actually what you call occitan is just several dialects.

Come to southern France; ask people if they speak occitan. Many of them won't even understand what you mean by occitan!!