the French vs. the Franks

I believe 'France' doesn't deserve its name . It's would be more likely for Belgium and Southern Holland to be called France , because that's where it all started. Even today people in Flanders and Holland speak a decendant language of Frankish , whereas the French as we all know speak a decendant language of Latin . I would like to know in what degree France is ' Frankish '.

=>Even today people in Flanders and Holland speak a decendant language of Frankish.<=

No actually we speak Dutch.Wich in the early dark ages was "influenced" by lower franconian (its franconian,not frankish).

Sander ,
CONGRATULATION !
I read you every where and you put light on many points . I 'm sorry for being so far of the answer of the questions but it's a pleasure to read what they all have to say .

In Germany, some of the territory of the original Franks is still called Franken (from Franfurt-am-Main and southeastwards along the Main).

France could also have been known as Gallia, if the the turns of history had been a bit different.

For how long did the Frankish upper-class in Gallia/France speak Germanic Franconian? Charlemagne knew a Germanic language (and all his family had Germanic names), but maybe that was because he spent so much time in Germany?

I France, we usually don't link at all our country with the tribe of the franks.
We consider ourselves as latins, because our cultural herency is mostly coming from latin language and roman civilisation. For us, the franks were just a germanic tribe, who, like others invaded the former regions of the roman empire. (franks, burgonds in Gaul, lombards in northern italy, wisigoths in spain, vandals in south spain and north africa, etc...)
culturally the franks didn't left us much things, and they were only around 80 000 settlers in a gallo-roman population of 15 millions people.
The history has make that they give us their name.

We usually don't consider us as been frank descendants, but being mainly a Gaul and Roman mix

JEAN GAB1,

Are you a fan of me ?

Re: "I believe 'France' doesn't deserve its name."

Try to look at it from the standpoint of the indigenous Basque and Breton inhabitants of the country. To them, I'm sure "French" and "France" sound very appropriate as names for these people and their country in much the same way Sasanach (Saxon) does to the Scotch and Irish for "Englishman".

I agree with fabbrice, si ce n'est que le francique bas-rhénan, usité par les Francs implantés en Gaule septentrionale et par les autres Barbares gravitant autour de la galaxie franque (des Alamans, des Burgondes, quelques Goths peut-être), a influencé le phonétisme de la "lingua romana rustica" parlée au nord de la Loire (vieille langie d'oïl).

Il doit y avoir 400 mots passés sur francique au français. Quelqu'un a une idée de l'impact du francique sur l'occitan ?

Interesting sites :

http://scholar76.tripod.com/francia.htm
(about Gallia, Francia & Occitania)

http://libro.uca.edu/lewis/sfcatsoc.htm
(about the Occitano-Catalan civilisation and the never-ending Frankish-French infiltration)

http://www.langue-fr.net/d/origines/origines.htm
(topo sur la naissance du français)

http://occitanet.free.fr/imatges/romania.gif
(the real divisions within Romanophony don't match country borders : Southern France + Northern Italy + Eastern Spain = Central Romanophony -
Northern France + Arpitany + non-French-speaking, Latin Switzerland = Northern Romanophony -
Iberic Romanophony -
Italic Romanophony -
Eastern Romanophony (Romania, Greece, Albany)

http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/francophonie/perioderomane_CARTCharlemagne.htm
(Charlemagne's Empire)

http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/europe/France-Parkvall-map.htm
(taditional linguistic areas on the soil of what's France today and neighbouring countries : French languages spoken in the British Isles are not mentioned)

Although the French language is based predominately on Latin, the French people I have talked to ( from both France and Quebec) definitely don't like to be lumped together with the Spanish, Italians, Romanians and South Americans. When I told a French-Canadian friend of mine (Jean-Paul Gagnon) once that the Latin peoples were the "Spaniards, Italians, Romanians and possibly the French" he promptly corrected me and said said "No, we consider ourselves to be a Germanic people," and a French woman I met from Lyons about 25 years ago expressed nothing but contempt for the Spanish language when I told her that I had studied a lot of Spanish but not much French.

Brennus,

It is no easy task to measure the degree of Latinhood or Romanhood or Romancehood of the French language. It is a different story to assess how that degree is perceived – then quantified if perceived at all – by either Francophones or people who don’t understand French.

Are Francophones more or less aware that the French vowel system is different in quality and quantity to that of any other major Latin language except Portuguese – gathering 27? vowels (8? oral monophthongs, 5? nasal monophthongs, 10? oral diphthongs and 4? nasal diphthongs) – and Occitan (17? vowels including 10? ‘true’ diphthongs) ? I’m not too sure Francophones realise the (standard) French 16-vowel system is less conservative than its Italian (7? vowels), Spanish (9? vowels – aren’t the 8? Spanish rising ‘diphthongs’ starting with [j] or [w] actually semi-vowels like in French [pjano] ‘piano’ and [wi] ‘oui’ ?), Catalan (12? vowels – the 4? falling ‘diphthongs’ starting with [j] or [w] are excluded) or Romanian (9? vowels) counterparts ? However, Francophones might feel that French lacks, for instance, the typical –a and –o endings that make other Romance languages sound ‘Latin’.

In France herself, the concept of ‘Latinity’ may vary according to which side of the Loire river you’re living on. The Midi ‘accent’ (l’accent du Midi) – there are at least 4 or 5 major southern ways of pronouncing standard French – is often thought by Northerners to be ‘related’ to Spain or Italy (that is of course not the case).

Perhaps would the French who consider themselves to be a ‘Germanic’ people suddenly feel more Latin if sentenced to spend the rest of their lives in places like Rotterdam, Liverpool, Essen or Oslo ? That said, I’m not implying that French-speaking Canadians do often dance samba on the streets of Montréal nor that people from Lausanne hang up their washing above pedestrians as it can be done in Naples.

Maybe the visceral reluctance to be called ‘Latin’ has more to do with stuff ultimately linked to GDP per capita than with linguistics stricto sensu…

Brennus,

There is nothing more inconsistent than saying the french are not latin. The french are obviously latin people. 95% of the french vocabulary derived from Latin. The roman settled in Gallia, as they did in Spain and Portugal.
The franks gave their name to France but they were assimilated by the locals and adopted the latin dialects. If you say that the french are germanic because of the franks, then you must say the same about the spanish and portuguese people who were invaded by the wisigoths. Actually, the whole roman empire was invaded by germanic tribes, and that's why it fell.

Those people you met are just stupid!! I mean, the french don't consider themselves as "germanic people". If the spanish, the portuguese and the sicilians look more dark-haired, it's mainly because they were invaded by the arabs. You have to take into account that Spain and portugal were occupied by the arabs during 8 centuries!!! (longer period than the roman one!!). So I think it's no use to explain why they look this way...

And I also think that today the word "latin" is debased, mainly because the americans are used to calling "latino" everything that come from south america. To me, a frenchman is much more "latin" than a peruvian or an indian from chiapas!!!

Sander ,

When one speaks of franconian , one means Frankish ...
Ever heard of Salian Franks ?

Nederfrankisch ( Lower Franconian=Frankisch )
is the motherlanguage of Modern Dutch

Another thing : Dutch wasn't influenced by it , it is Dutch's ancestor !

" When I told a French-Canadian friend of mine (Jean-Paul Gagnon) once that the Latin peoples were the "Spaniards, Italians, Romanians and possibly the French" he promptly corrected me and said said "No, we consider ourselves to be a Germanic people,"



Your friend is an ignorant. I really doubt that he said that. I'm french and I lived in Quebec few mounths... Quebecers are very very proud of their language and are very aware that it comes from latin. because they live surounded by an anglosaxon ocean, they feel to be a drop of latinity in north america. the quebecers often like to call thermselves "the latins of the north".
The problem is that in america, latin is often badly used to speak about mexican or caribean cultures and peoples (these cultures and people are latin by language, but they have a huge part of their identity who is not latin at all: music influenced by africa, food from amerindians, people mainly of mixed races (mestizos, mulatos). In this case if your friend is very influenced by the US medias, he could have been his view about "latinity" as something that seem to him exotic, with bad conotations (poor peoples, underdevelopped countries, etc...) from wich it could be hard to identify when your come from a white, rich and north american latin country.

Anyway, as a french I never heard in all my life people refering as themselves as "germanic"... I would sound as strange as hearing a spanish refering himself to be arabic...
we don't feel ourselves to be culturally close to dutch, german, scandinavian or english people.
The only "etnic" group from wich the french people link itself outside of the latin one is the celtic group. In the past, the french schools were learning to kids "nos ancestres les Gaulois" (our ancestors the Gauls)


"though the French language is based predominately on Latin, the French people I have talked to ( from both France and Quebec) definitely don't like to be lumped together with the Spanish, Italians, Romanians and South Americans."

I don't agree. first of all you seem to think that spanish, italians, Romanians and south americans are one and unique groupe lumped into the international stereotypes (mostly coming from US), that describes "latin" as being "non-white" poor peoples that dances salsa and eat tacos.
That is not at all latin culture : Spanish people and italians are from rich western european countries (italy=sixth world power, Spain=8th world power), they consider themselves latin in the european meaning, but not as the "latino" stereotype that comes from US. The same for the french people.
The problem is that in america, "latin/latino" is often badly used to speak only about mexican or caribean cultures and peoples (these cultures and people are latin by language, but they have a huge part of their identity who is not latin at all: so-called "latin-music" is mainly from africa, the so-called "latin food" is mainly coming from amerindians, and the so-called "latinos" are people mainly of mixed races (mestizos, mulatos). In this case if your friend is very influenced by the US medias, he could have a view about "latinity" biased as something that seem to him exotic, with bad conotations (poor peoples, underdevelopped countries, etc...) from wich it could be hard to identify when your come from a white, rich and north american latin country.
this misusing of the word "latin" is slowly infuencing the latin european countries, even Italy or Spain. I was suprised when I went in spain to hear some people being shoked when I told them they were latin. They were thinking that I was confonding themselves with Amerindian peruvians... some said "I'm not latin !! I'm white and don't eat tacos..."
Its is time to say that hispano-america is not the stereotype of the latin identity, because in fact most of its culture and people are not latin.