Danny,
Dutch is grammatically similar in many ways to German, but is very different in speech. A speaker of one requires some practice to effectively understand a speaker of the other. Compare, for example:
De kleinste kameleon is maar 2 cm groot, de grootste kan wel 80 cm worden. (Dutch)
Das kleinste Chamäleon ist nur 2 cm groß, die größten können auch 80 cm erreichen. (German)
Some less common phrasings and word choices have closer cognates in German:
Der kleinste Chamäleon ist nur 2 cm groß, der größte kann wohl 80 cm werden. (less common German)
(Which translates as "The smallest Chameleons are just 2 cm big, the biggest can well achieve 80 cm.")
Even in some places, German and Dutch are spoken almost interchangeably. Dutch speakers are generally able to read German, and German speakers (who can speak English) are generally able to read Dutch, even if they find the spoken language very amusing.
Dutch is a Low German language within the West Germanic branch
It is therefore related to other Low Saxon and East Low German languages.
Although often considered a variation of German, in many aspects it is more like Dutch, which is based on closely related Low Franconian dialects. Low Saxon, East Low German and Low Franconian are classified together as Low German.
You see its not just Low franconian,Dutch was based (500 BC) on these languages.
=>Nederfrankisch ( Lower Franconian=Frankisch )
is the motherlanguage of Modern Dutch<=
This is bullshit...modern dutch has little incommon with Lower franconian.
=>Nederfrankisch ( Lower Franconian=Frankisch )
is the motherlanguage of Modern Dutch<=
This is bullshit...modern dutch has little incommon with Lower franconian.
So what ? It is the direct ancestor of Dutch . As a result, low franconian couldn't have influenced Dutch ( like you claimed ), because it was spoken way earlier.
Short answer : LOW FRANCONIAN IS THE ANCESTOR OF DUTCH
Of course linguistically the French are Latin / Romance, but ethnically I would say Gallic, just like the Spanish are Latin - Iberian.
Latin culture in Europe - isn't that in some way connected to Mediterranean culture? At least Provence feels more Latin than Normandy does!
Still nobody has answered my question about for how long the Franks in France kept their Germanic language.
Fredrik,
What do you mean??
Ethnically, the french are latin people. The gauls were celtic people. I'm french and I can assure you that I don't look like a welsh or an irish man who are often redheads. I'm dark-haired, and I've brown eyes just like most of the french.
Provence doesn't feel more latin than Normandy does. Both are latin regions. If the french language exists today, it's because the romans settled in Gaul. Today each french person (except the immigrants from Africa...etc) is descended from the romans.
Fabrice is right! Today everyone around the world liken the words "latin", "latinity"etc.. to south america. It's stupid!! The american journalists called Jennifer Lopez a "latina", ricky martin a "latino"...etc. It means nothing. They don't even sing in any other language than english most of the time!!
To me there are only 5 "true Latin countries" in the world:
Italia, France, Spain, Portugal, Romania.THAT'S ALL!!!
These 5 countries were colonized by the romans (I mean that the romans settled in these regions) and more than 90% of their languages derived from Latin.
We can add the french-speaking parts of Belgium and Swiss too.
The traditions of south america have nothing to do with the latin culture. Salsa, cuban or brazilian music, culture...etc, are a mix of african and amerindian cultures.
"Of course linguistically the French are Latin / Romance, but ethnically I would say Gallic, just like the Spanish are Latin - Iberian."
"Latin culture in Europe - isn't that in some way connected to Mediterranean culture? At least Provence feels more Latin than Normandy does! "
Of course latin culture is conected with mediterranean sea, it is where it comes from. The same for germanic cultures's link with the nordic seas.
But that's not simple : austria is clearly a germanic country, but is not geographically linked to baltic or north seas.
"latin" and "mediterranean" are obviously linked concepts, but not totally.
Greece, Turquey, Lebanon, Tunisia, etc.. are very mediterranean countries, but are not at all latin countries.
Don't forget that France is a mediterranean country, at least partly. Of course the mediterranean culture is more implanted in the south than in the north. Italy is not completly mediterranean either; Napoli is very mediterranean while Milano is not really.
The same for Spain, only the east and south coasts of spain are mediterranean; Galicia, asturias, pais vasco, aragon, castilla y leon are not at all mediterranean regions.
"ethnically the french would be "gallic" while spanish are "latin-iberians..."
Spain is not ethnically more latin than france. The population of Spain is the fruit of the mix of different peoples: the basis of the population is celtic and iberians. the celtiberians have been "latinized" and mixed with romans, like the Gauls have been latinized and mixed with romans too.
Gaul even recieved more Roman (latin) imigrants than Hispania, because of better climate for agriculture (spain was too dry for the romans)
If the spanish people look like more to Italians than the french it is not because they would be "more latin" or maore roman ethnically, but because their country is more southerner and revieved more influence from south mediterranean regions than france.
To answere your question I don't really know when the frank language completly disappear from France. there is a old text "serment de Strasbourg", which is considered to be the first official text to have been written in "french" (old proto-french) and in germanic language, and not in latin. It dates of 842, it organise the division in three part the charlemagne's empire following the spoken languages of the regions ; one part would be a romance-speaking kingdom and will become named francia occidentalis (later just france) and the others would be germanic-speaking kingdoms (wich will become much more later what we call today Germany)
Since this time France became the first kingdom of romance-latin culture, and the germanic language completly diseapered while and the few franks completed their melt to the local population.
Krako:
I don't think the Romans wiped out all Gauls and completely settled France with Romans. I was more like fabbrice says about Spain: Quite a lot of Romans came and mixed with the local Gauls, who then adopted the Latin language. I suspect you have read too much Asterix!
You don't have to have red hair to be a Celt! That is mostly people in Ireland and Scotland. Welsh people are known as not very tall, with brown hair and brown eyes, much like the French! Do all Bretons (who are also Celts) have red hair?
Of course most of France is Latin in the linguistical sense. But culturally I think Central France resembles Germany just as much as it does resemble Italy and Spain. (I suppose this will drive you crazy!!!) And I don't mean that Central France is Germanic, just that it is Central European.
The Strasbourg text from 842 was probably also written in Germanic because it also dealt with Germany.
frederik from norway ;
Can you explain me what it means to be latin ethnically for you ?
And what, for you, makes Italians and spanish "more latin" ethnically ?
I am afraid that you are just prisioner of your misconceptions and imaginary stereotypes about what is a latin.
The fact that French differs much more from Latin than Italian and Spanish (especially when it comes to pronounciation) point to the fact that there was a large native Gallic population who adopted the foreign Latin language.
Ok, we stop talking about Latin "ethnicity". Instead we should say Latin culture and Latin language.
If Latin culture is defined as western Mediterranean culture then Italy, Southern France and Spain would have Latin cultures.
Italian and Spanish are closer to Latin than French is.
This may be because:
- Italy and Spain were more familiar to the homeland of the Romans (Latium), so they colonized it more thoroughly
- The influence of the Germanic migrations was smaller in Italy and Spain than in France
"The Strasbourg text from 842 was probably also written in Germanic because it also dealt with Germany."
Yes it is what I said : one version was in proto-french and another was ins germanic. It officialized the division between the germanic and the latin part of europe.
...similar to the homeland of the Romans...
The division was first and foremost political. The French peasants of that time did not understand much more Latin than the Germanic peasants. The kingdom in the middle, Lotharingia, compromized Romance as well as Germanic people.