What to call transsexuals?

Calling them what they want to be called is in all actuality a pity gesture masked as a polite gesture. They would be the first to tell you that they don't need anyone's pity.

Doing so, we would be nice, and would be placating toward them, but we really wouldn't be helping them at all would we.

I'm sure lemmings think they're fish and can breathe underwater, but they can't now can they.

When faced with a dilemma, the lesser of two evils does not equal one's ultimate good or best.

It's akin to giving morphine to a terminally ill patient. Sure, it makes them feel a little better.

But yes, even though a male to female transsexual is still a male due to XX chromosones regardless of genitalia, lifestyle or any other preference, the socially polite thing to do would be to not be a total @ss and call him a "he" even though he is still a 'he'...we all know that. Same for the females.

But are chromosomes really the end-all-be-all for sex?

<<But are chromosomes really the end-all-be-all for sex? >>

Yes.

What about someone with cAIS, whose chromosomes are 46XY (typical for male), but was born looking just a like a girl and usually grows up as a girl? This condition causes the body not to respond to testosterone, so the person develops just as a girl and further as a woman. What about this person, who has male chromosomes?

After reading this, can you continue to say that chromosomes are the end-all-be-all for sex?

<<What about someone with cAIS, whose chromosomes are 46XY (typical for male)>>

very rare indeed, and I believe that such cases of "men" can actually bear children like women...

These are a special case though. They are biologically classified as male though, but with all visible and physiological appearance as women.

Transsexuals are different.

Leasnam, I was responding to someone who was saying chromosomes are the end-all-be-all; clearly you do not think that chromosomes are the end-all-be-all. Biological classification is not so easy, because people are not classified exclusively by chromosomes--other factors are considered, such as gonads (cAIS women would be classified here as male), hormones (though their testosterone doesn't affect them, CAIS women would be classified here as male), primary sex characteristics (CAIS women would be classified as female here), secondary sex characteristics (CAIS women would be classified here as female too), and gender identity, the deep personal sense of being male or female (CAIS women would be classified here as female too). (Also, people with cAIS are infertile.)

As for the transsexuals in question, naturally they are male in all but gender identity, which would be female, but I think most people either don't understand gender identity, because they don't have any sense of it causing them problems, or they doubt it, in which case there isn't much medical science can do. Still, gender identity is the deep personal sense of gender and it's not female for someone otherwise male because they didn't just get the right number of kicks in the @$$ or something as a kid, but rather it arises probably as a result of genetic, congenital, and environmental factors.

Milton Diamond was the doctor who exposed the case of David Reimer, saying that David could not be successfully raised as a girl because his gender identity was male and that he would insist his male gender identity even with society trying to pressure him into being female. He argues for the existence of gender identity as separate from the other determinants of sex and gives mechanisms and that the gender identity is the mechanism by which one knows oneself as male or female. Here he argues his biased-interaction model on how people grow up with their sense of self:

Biased-Interaction theory of psychosexual development: "how does one know if one is male or female?"
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_55/ai_n21130341/print

Milton Diamond is the Director of the University of Hawai'i's Pacific Center for Sex and Society:
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/

Because of this factor pushing transsexuals to change sex, I think it is proper to call them by the pronouns they wish to be called.

<<Leasnam, I was responding to someone who was saying chromosomes are the end-all-be-all; clearly you do not think that chromosomes are the end-all-be-all.>>

No, actually I do believe that chromosones are the sex-determining factor.

What I find is occurring is that Guest may be using the extrememly rare cAIS phenomenom as a groundwork for building up beliefs about other transgendered and transexual ideas.
eg. > if cAIS occurs, then transgenderedism is substantiated and fixed, therefore transexualism can be concluded to be a transgenderedism of say, the mind or personal identity.

That's devious to say the least. At best, it is manipulating science to justify certain behaviours and attitudes.

cAIS does in no way necessarily bear any relation to transsexuality. cAIS is medically confirmed. No one can find any reason (medically) why transsexuality exists. Only that it exists.

Leasnam,

It's true there is no conclusive evidence, but most of the evidence that has come out in the last 10 years suggests a variation in brain development that causes the development of transsexualism.

To continue holding out saying that it's definitely just a certain _deviant_ behavior meaning the person wasn't disciplined enough or something like that is itself _devious_, because it ignores the evidence that came out in the last 10 years.

The relation to cAIS is that chromosomes cannot be the end-all-be-all, so to say a transsexual is not really a woman, because the chromosomes didn't change is itself _devious_.

Also, you should read Dr. Diamond's work on this matter; it has been quite extensive. He is making testable predictions regarding gender identity formation in his biased-interaction theory of pyschosexual development.

<<To continue holding out saying that it's definitely just a certain _deviant_ behavior meaning the person wasn't disciplined enough or something like that is itself _devious_, because it ignores the evidence that came out in the last 10 years.
>>

Where did someone call any behaviour "deviant"?

Who said "disciplined"??

I said that using stretched scientific information to validate a preconcluded agenda was devious, and it is. Would you not agree?

*hypothetical* question:

Dear Guest above, what would say if doctors and scientific community found out that there were no biological basis in support of such claims. What kindly would be your response?

<<Dear Guest above, what would say if doctors and scientific community found out that there were no biological basis in support of such claims. What kindly would be your response?>>

I would accept it.

<<I said that using stretched scientific information to validate a preconcluded agenda was devious, and it is. Would you not agree?>>

I think it is too. I think Guest has painted himself into a corner.

So much (pardonable) ignorance, so little time... In the process of explaining the issues, you'll see many uncommonly used words, so this is right "on topic' for a language board.

There are a number - over a hundred - of medical conditions we call "Intersex". That is, neither wholly male, nor wholly female.
This is not a philosophical issue, or a religious issue, it's a biological issue, capable of being examined and proven by objective tests.

Most - 98.3% in fact - people are normally male, or normally female. No doubts, no ambiguities. And of the 1.7% who are Intersexed, most are asymptomatic, and never know - unless they go to a fertility clinic, or have a gene test taken for health reasons. You could be one of them.

But for 1 in 1000 - yes, that common - it's not asymptomatic at all. Many of the more conditions have already been mentioned, but they're not the most spectacular ones.

AIS - androgen insensitivity syndrome. This feminises a masculine body. There are degrees - partial AIS 1 leads to a male body with hypogonadism, undeveloped genitalia, and probably some other feminisation too. Complete AIS (CAIS) results in a female body. Miss Teen America 1991 had CAIS. Women with CAIS universally have a female gender identity - more on that later.

CAH - congenital adrenal hyperplasia. This masculinises a feminine body. Again, there are degrees. Only 1 in 10 have a male gender identity, despite somewhat masculinised genitalia.

Kleinfelter - usually 47xxy rather than 46xy (male) or 46xx (female), though 48xxyy etc and combinations are also possible. These people usually look male, with male gender identities. But some don't, and some have even given birth.

Turner syndrome - 45x - has been explained before.

Swyer sundrome - 46xy, but with a complete female reproductive system, except for the gonads. They can give birth, but only as surrogate mothers.

There are 46xy women who have given birth in the normal way. There are 46xx men who have fathered children. There are mosaics, people with both 46xx and 46xy chromosomes in different parts of their bodies. Or 45x/46xy, or 47xxy/46xx, or 47xxy/46xy, and so on.

It gets worse though. It has been common medical practice to surgically alter newborn babies with unusual genitalia so they look "normal". This means that some normal baby boys whose male organ was deemed too small were castrated, and surgically altered to look female. Many only were told later in life - usually after they'd seen a psychiatrist because they thought they were transsexual. They looked female, but their gender identity was always male.

But that's not all. There are several rare conditions, such as 5ARD and 17BHDD that cause a natural sex change. Those born with 5ARD or 17BHDD look like little girls, regardless of their chromosomes. But half masculinise at puberty, the genitals change shape, and some can even father children. For 2/3 of them, this is a wonderful relief, gender identity is usually male. But for the rest, it's a descent into nightmare, and a medical emergency.

OK, that's Intersex - but what about Transsexuality? Isn't that just a mental illness, curable with therapy or drugs or something?

No. Transsexuality is a form of Intersex, one where the brain, rather than other parts of the body, is affected. In fact, other parts of the body are often affected too, and the only area of the brain that matters is the lymbic nucleus, the parts that deal with emotions, instincts, body map, ovulation and so on.

This has been known since 1996, as the result of autopsies on the brains of transsexual people. We've known that male and female brains differ structurally for even longer, but the results from 1996 show that transsexuals have cross-gendered brains, just as some intersexed people have cross-gendered genitalia or chromosomes. We can now use Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) to show this on people who aren't dead. Which is a distinct advantage to the people concerned.

See:
Zhou JN, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF. A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

Kruijver FP, Zhou JN, Pool CW, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF. Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041.

And many other papers on the subject.

It comes down to a matter of respect. You should use "He" and "His" for someone who presents as male, and "She" and "Her" for someone who presents as female. Because lacking chromosome tests, ultrasounds, a medical history of surgery performed on them when a few weeks old, a karyotype etc etc you really can't say what sex they are, regardless of your definition.

And for those who think chromosomes are the be-all and end-all, have you had a Karyotype (chromosome test) recently? You may be of the opposite sex to the one you think you are - by your own definition.

There's an online article that has made it into "best of" collections of both medical and neurological articles that is relevant.

http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2008/06/bigender-and-brain.html

I'll also quote the Australian Family Court as far back as 2003, when the scientific evidence was examined.

At paragraph [252]: ‘The traditional analysis that they are "psychologically" transsexual does not explain how this state came about. For example, there seems to be no suggestion in the evidence that their psychological state can be explained by reference to circumstances of their upbringing. In that sense, the brain sex theory does not seem to be competing with other explanations, but rather is providing a possible explanation of what is otherwise inexplicable’.

At paragraph [253]: ‘In other words (as I understand it) the brain of an individual may in some sense be male, for example, though the rest of the person’s body is female’.

At paragraph [268]: ‘It seems quite wrong to think of these people as merely wishing or preferring to be of the opposite sex, or having the opinion that they are’.

At paragraph [270]: ‘But I am satisfied that the evidence now is inconsistent with the distinction formerly drawn between biological factors, meaning genitals, chromosomes and gonads, and merely "psychological factors", and on this basis distinguishing between cases of inter-sex (incongruities among biological factors) and transsexualism (incongruities between biology and psychology)’.

At paragraph [272]: ‘In my view the evidence demonstrates (at least on the balance of probabilities) that the characteristics of transsexuals are as much “biological” as those of people thought of as inter-sex’.

And while I'm at it, a translation of "fMRT zur Diagnose bei Transsexualität geprüft" ( ArzteZeitung - the German "Physician's Journal" 2006 )

"Twelve heterosexual men and twelve heterosexual women were examined, along with twelve anatomical males who identify as women. As Dr. Elke Gizewski stressed at the Röntgenkongreß in Berlin, it was already well-known from preliminary investigations of other groups that differences between men and women appear in fMRT when they are presented with erotic stimuli.

In men, the limbic system and upper regions of the hypothalamus, the amygdalae and the insular cortex were activated substantially more strongly. “We confirmed this finding in the comparison between the heterosexual men and women of our Cohort”, said Gizewski.

This specifically male activation of the limbic system was not found in the transsexual sample. Under fMRT, the pictures corresponded rather accurately to those of the female sample.

Radiologists can now confirm what transsexuals report - that they feel “trapped in the wrong body” - on the basis of the activation of the brain when presented with erotic stimuli. There is obviously a biological correlation with the subjective feelings."

A few more papers on the subject:

Berglund H, Lindström P, Dhejne-Helmy C, and Savic I. Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. Cereb Cortex. 2008 Aug;18(8):1900-8.

Swaab DF. Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.

Swaab DF, Fliers E. A sexually dimorphic nucleus in the human brain. Science (1985) 228:1112–1115.

I think that's enough for now.

I suppose I better add a disclaimer here. Although 99%+ of all natural "sex changes" are from Female to Male, there are a tiny minority that go the other way, for reasons not well understood. There appear to be at least 4 different observed etiologies - ways this can happen - and a fifth has been postulated, but not observed.

My own story is in COSMOS Science Magazine.
See http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/features/print/1462/intersex-case-studies

In common with the majority of spontaneous sex changes - "idiopathic partial sex reversal" to give the technical term - it was a great relief for me.
It is a matter of debate as to whether anyone in this situation is more properly classified as Intersexed with a Transsexual medical history, or Transsexual with an Intersex condition.

I do not take well comments such as "they're such a small minority, they don't matter", "they're all perverts", "they should all be locked up for the rest of their lives" and other such calls for persecution and denial of basic human rights. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion though.

What they're not entitled to is their own facts.