Oh no, sir! I am not Greek. Let go off my leg. What is wrong with you man? I said I'm not Greek! Now, lets see what others have to say about the latin-germanic mix. I said stop touching me. Jeez...man. What made you think I was Greek in the first place? Was it my dark skin or my hairy legs? OK, that's enough! I'm calling the cops! Stop it! Stop it! Sto...st..st..st...
What makes French a Latin-Germanic mixed language
"""here are archological proofs for it (e.g. hundredths of well documeted Germanic cemeteries in northern France and Lorraine/Bugogne), medieval lists of thousands of French inhabitants showing that 90% of them had Germanic names like Robert, Frederic etc. , Germanic codices (law books), Germanic words and structures in French language etc.."""
it is the same in Sapin and Italy (north italy), so?
it is the same in Sapin and Italy (north italy), so?
"""here are archological proofs for it (e.g. hundredths of well documeted Germanic cemeteries in northern France and Lorraine/Bugogne), medieval lists of thousands of French inhabitants showing that 90% of them had Germanic names like Robert, Frederic etc. , Germanic codices (law books), Germanic words and structures in French language etc.."""
it is the same in Sapin and Italy (north italy), so?
___________________
Northern Italy is the same....
it is the same in Sapin and Italy (north italy), so?
___________________
Northern Italy is the same....
""""Migration never make the local culture becoming a latin-germanic mix. The same way the arabic migration to Spain
didn't made Spain a arabo-latin country. """"
"Until today, there is a fundamental difference between arabic migration and Germanic migration: Arabs (like all
Semitic peoples) do not mix with other populations"
That's wrong, almost the reverse (depending in which culture you speak about). the north African arabized peoples in
Spain did mixed a lot with the local population, being of similar mediterranean background, and they left a lot more
in Spanish culture (Music, architecture, foods) than the franks left in the french culture.
The simpls reason for that is that on one side the Franks formed a ruling class, and on the other they finally adopted
the local culture. How the local culture could be a germano-latin mix since the small germanic ruling minority itself
finally adopted the majoritary culture.
Secondly, speaking about the supposed "fundamantally different" tendency to mix with local population you just have to
look at the hundered of thousands of English, Dutch and Germans people that emigrate to Spain or southern France and
who create almost full-german, full-english or Dutch-speaking towns, without having much contact to the local culture.
" while Germanics do all they can to become indistinguishable (e.g. 25% of USA-population stem from Germans, but this
fact is almost invisible in US language and culture)."
Well, firslty you confuse "german" and "germanic", my friend. The Germans assimilated so easily because the
background of both nations was mainly a north-European one (germanic): germanic language, dominant protestant custums
and social structures, similar social codes, foods, beer culture, etc. The "Muller" just change one letter and
became "Miller", switched to another germanic language and they became Americans. The same for the Duths,
Scandinavians, etc.. anther story was the assimilation of Italians.
" During migration period they tried to become Romans, but were too numerous to succeed, so they learned Latin only
incompletely. This is the reason why Romance, the result of the vain efforts of barbaric Germans to learn good Latin,
has only little to do with classical Latin except some vocabulary. "
First, romance languages are far to "have little to do with classical latin except some vocabulary", and secondly the
differences that exist are so because the romance languages do not decent directly form classical latin but from
vulgar latin. Vulgar latin always existed and did not appeard with germanic mixes as your fantasist theory states it.
Secondly, your theory suppose that the romance languages were born because by the "bad-latin" spoken by the germanic
ruling classes.; But what about the language of the majorities? And why are today the romance and germanic languages
so different together (both in vocabulary and straucture) if romance languages are almost germanic languages, with
only "some vocabulary"... My friend romance languages are not English...
" There are archological proofs for it (e.g. hundredths of well documeted Germanic cemeteries in northern France and
Lorraine/Bugogne), medieval lists of thousands of French inhabitants showing that 90% of them had Germanic names like
Robert, Frederic etc. , Germanic codices (law books), Germanic words and structures in French language etc.. "
That doesn't say nothing, those were just the fashions of those times (and still today).
You don't need to look at medieval lists of Lorraine (or northern France as a whole) cemeteries to see people with
names with germanic roots: a lot of people are named "roberto", "federico" in Sicily.
carlos ,carolina,luis ,eduardo, alberto, fernando, ricardo, roberto, rodrigo, erika, gustavo, enrique, guillermo,
alvaro, edgar, carla, hugo, alfredo, ramon, federico, etc. Are all among the most frequent Spanish names, and all
have germanic etymolgy (not even speaking about the most famous Spanish family names likes Hernandez, Fernandez,
rodriguez, alvarez, Lopez, etc..) that doesn't that the people who were them are also. It it was such it would mean
that the Spanish have much more Germanic roots than french... is it really what you think?
The same way you have thousands of Colombian (other nationes also) with English names, because it is a fahion coming
from US-pop culture, the dominant culture. iN romance nations, such as Spain or France, the kingdoms were led by
dominant classes of germanic origins, the origin of the fashions come from there, because it was seen as more
"valuable" to wear a germanic name than a roman name, of the ruled class.
" Indeed I would say that Greece is the least "western" country in Europe, while also Greece has had intensive contact
with Goths. But Greece is much less "western" than northern Italy, thats sure. "
well, that precisely what is not sure at all.
If I understand well your point of view, greece been the least western nation of Europe, well, the more a culture is
Greek-based, the less it is western. It seems quite in contradiction with the common point of view which consider
Greece (and Rome) as the origin of western civilisation... So, from your point of view Italy is supposed to be "more
western" because it has Germanic origins. So having Germanic origin is what defines "west" for you, it seems as the
absolute necessity to be "western"... I think the most "western" country would be Sweden... Well, this is your point
of view, but don't be surprised that a lot of people won't follow you on this point.
"Russia, as a former colony of Sweden (the name Russia itself is Swedish), has a lot of common with Sweden. But all
dependes what is called "Russia". Kiew is a former Slavo-Swedish city, Sibiria is Asian.... "
Well, so following your point of view Russia is a very "western" nation... strong germanic-influenced
didn't made Spain a arabo-latin country. """"
"Until today, there is a fundamental difference between arabic migration and Germanic migration: Arabs (like all
Semitic peoples) do not mix with other populations"
That's wrong, almost the reverse (depending in which culture you speak about). the north African arabized peoples in
Spain did mixed a lot with the local population, being of similar mediterranean background, and they left a lot more
in Spanish culture (Music, architecture, foods) than the franks left in the french culture.
The simpls reason for that is that on one side the Franks formed a ruling class, and on the other they finally adopted
the local culture. How the local culture could be a germano-latin mix since the small germanic ruling minority itself
finally adopted the majoritary culture.
Secondly, speaking about the supposed "fundamantally different" tendency to mix with local population you just have to
look at the hundered of thousands of English, Dutch and Germans people that emigrate to Spain or southern France and
who create almost full-german, full-english or Dutch-speaking towns, without having much contact to the local culture.
" while Germanics do all they can to become indistinguishable (e.g. 25% of USA-population stem from Germans, but this
fact is almost invisible in US language and culture)."
Well, firslty you confuse "german" and "germanic", my friend. The Germans assimilated so easily because the
background of both nations was mainly a north-European one (germanic): germanic language, dominant protestant custums
and social structures, similar social codes, foods, beer culture, etc. The "Muller" just change one letter and
became "Miller", switched to another germanic language and they became Americans. The same for the Duths,
Scandinavians, etc.. anther story was the assimilation of Italians.
" During migration period they tried to become Romans, but were too numerous to succeed, so they learned Latin only
incompletely. This is the reason why Romance, the result of the vain efforts of barbaric Germans to learn good Latin,
has only little to do with classical Latin except some vocabulary. "
First, romance languages are far to "have little to do with classical latin except some vocabulary", and secondly the
differences that exist are so because the romance languages do not decent directly form classical latin but from
vulgar latin. Vulgar latin always existed and did not appeard with germanic mixes as your fantasist theory states it.
Secondly, your theory suppose that the romance languages were born because by the "bad-latin" spoken by the germanic
ruling classes.; But what about the language of the majorities? And why are today the romance and germanic languages
so different together (both in vocabulary and straucture) if romance languages are almost germanic languages, with
only "some vocabulary"... My friend romance languages are not English...
" There are archological proofs for it (e.g. hundredths of well documeted Germanic cemeteries in northern France and
Lorraine/Bugogne), medieval lists of thousands of French inhabitants showing that 90% of them had Germanic names like
Robert, Frederic etc. , Germanic codices (law books), Germanic words and structures in French language etc.. "
That doesn't say nothing, those were just the fashions of those times (and still today).
You don't need to look at medieval lists of Lorraine (or northern France as a whole) cemeteries to see people with
names with germanic roots: a lot of people are named "roberto", "federico" in Sicily.
carlos ,carolina,luis ,eduardo, alberto, fernando, ricardo, roberto, rodrigo, erika, gustavo, enrique, guillermo,
alvaro, edgar, carla, hugo, alfredo, ramon, federico, etc. Are all among the most frequent Spanish names, and all
have germanic etymolgy (not even speaking about the most famous Spanish family names likes Hernandez, Fernandez,
rodriguez, alvarez, Lopez, etc..) that doesn't that the people who were them are also. It it was such it would mean
that the Spanish have much more Germanic roots than french... is it really what you think?
The same way you have thousands of Colombian (other nationes also) with English names, because it is a fahion coming
from US-pop culture, the dominant culture. iN romance nations, such as Spain or France, the kingdoms were led by
dominant classes of germanic origins, the origin of the fashions come from there, because it was seen as more
"valuable" to wear a germanic name than a roman name, of the ruled class.
" Indeed I would say that Greece is the least "western" country in Europe, while also Greece has had intensive contact
with Goths. But Greece is much less "western" than northern Italy, thats sure. "
well, that precisely what is not sure at all.
If I understand well your point of view, greece been the least western nation of Europe, well, the more a culture is
Greek-based, the less it is western. It seems quite in contradiction with the common point of view which consider
Greece (and Rome) as the origin of western civilisation... So, from your point of view Italy is supposed to be "more
western" because it has Germanic origins. So having Germanic origin is what defines "west" for you, it seems as the
absolute necessity to be "western"... I think the most "western" country would be Sweden... Well, this is your point
of view, but don't be surprised that a lot of people won't follow you on this point.
"Russia, as a former colony of Sweden (the name Russia itself is Swedish), has a lot of common with Sweden. But all
dependes what is called "Russia". Kiew is a former Slavo-Swedish city, Sibiria is Asian.... "
Well, so following your point of view Russia is a very "western" nation... strong germanic-influenced
in Spanish culture (Music, architecture, foods) than the franks left in the french culture.
The simpls reason for that is that on one side the Franks formed a ruling class, and on the other they finally adopted
The Muslims in Spain did not leave significant impact on Spanish music , architecture and food. Muslims did not eat pork (which is the food par excellence in Spain) nor drank wine (very hard to assume in a country like Spain that is mostly a giant vineyard).Once the Muslims were defeated even in Seville, the most southern city in Europe perhaps, gothic buildings like those in the North of Europe were built for example. Muslim style was abandoned . I would say the opposite, the Franks leaved more influence in France than the muslims in Spain. In the end the Franks were Catholics like the Galorromans, whereas the Muslims were Muslims , another different religion and value system. Not because they were "mediterranean" meant they had more in common with the Hispanorromans than let's say the Goths, unless you explain it more. Even the name "France" is due to the Franks. Also the Franks were in France forever unlike the Muslism who had to flee to North Africa when the Reconquista was done.
The simpls reason for that is that on one side the Franks formed a ruling class, and on the other they finally adopted
The Muslims in Spain did not leave significant impact on Spanish music , architecture and food. Muslims did not eat pork (which is the food par excellence in Spain) nor drank wine (very hard to assume in a country like Spain that is mostly a giant vineyard).Once the Muslims were defeated even in Seville, the most southern city in Europe perhaps, gothic buildings like those in the North of Europe were built for example. Muslim style was abandoned . I would say the opposite, the Franks leaved more influence in France than the muslims in Spain. In the end the Franks were Catholics like the Galorromans, whereas the Muslims were Muslims , another different religion and value system. Not because they were "mediterranean" meant they had more in common with the Hispanorromans than let's say the Goths, unless you explain it more. Even the name "France" is due to the Franks. Also the Franks were in France forever unlike the Muslism who had to flee to North Africa when the Reconquista was done.
" he Muslims in Spain did not leave significant impact on Spanish music , architecture and food. Muslims did not eat pork (which is the food par excellence in Spain) nor drank wine (very hard to assume in a country like Spain that is mostly a giant vineyard). "
Ididn't say that Spanish foods or music are derived from Arabic ones...
Of course Spanish food have a basis roman mediterranean roots (olive oil, wine): which is not of Arabic origin. But it is also clear that Spanish food (especially in the south) has stron arabic influences.
In term of music, there is even a term that describe it: "musique arabo-amdalouse" (arabo-andalucian music, http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musique_arabo-andalouse). This influenced Spanish music (and even European and world), thru the introduction in Spain of Guitar (what would be spanish music without guitar? http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitare#Origines )
" Once the Muslims were defeated even in Seville, the most southern city in Europe perhaps, gothic buildings like those in the North of Europe were built for example. Muslim style was abandoned . "
Gothic style, contrary to what the name let think, it is not a northern European style, it has been called "gothic" much later in a pejorative way.
It originated around Paris, and only after spread to northern Europe, in some areas like Germany or a little bit in England (most gothic in England is "neogothic", which emulated only some aspects of gothic architecture), and above all in Spain. But contrary to what you said, Spanish gothic architecture had definitly its own characters that came mainly from the Arabic influence.
The art that was born in christian areas, by the fusion of the previous islamic art with gothic and ibero-roman architectures is the "arte mudejar" ( http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arte_mud%C3%A9jar ). This fusion influenced the basis of Spanish architecture that developped after the reconquista. Many typically spanish and Portuguese decorative elements such as Azulejos (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azulejo) are directly derivative to muslim decorative arts. Also the presence of patios-organizated urbanism, especially in the south is in big part or arabic origins (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Patio_de_C%C3%B3rdoba.jpg)
" I would say the opposite, the Franks leaved more influence in France than the muslims in Spain."
exemples?
" In the end the Franks were Catholics like the Galorromans, whereas the Muslims were Muslims , another different religion and value system."
The franks were not originally Catholics, they became only when they arrived in Roman Gaul. There is a good chance to believe that their relation to chritianism was that of "new-christians", much different to what old chiritians might be. It was the Gallo-romans that give their religion to the Franks (those who settle on their territory) and their language (to those who settled on gallo-roman territory), not the inverse!
" Not because they were "mediterranean" meant they had more in common with the Hispanorromans than let's say the Goths, unless you explain it more. "
Yes, there exist a mediterranean culture, which, inside different cultures has unifying elements that were brought by similar climatic conditions (so similar urbanistic features, common food products such as olive oil, etc.), and of course similar influences (don't forget that north African were were from also part of the Roman empire, and that they recieved also Phenicians or Greek colonies as well as Spain. Well, it is not hardly understandable that between Iberoromans and North Africans they were stronger and older relations than with a germanic (ex. Goths) tribe from the far north of Europe to which iberian peninsula hadn't much to see.
" Even the name "France" is due to the Franks. "
And? Andalucia get its name from Vandals, Catalonia from goths, Lombardy from lombards, etc. The germanic tribes when they took control of an area generally gave their name to the kingdoms they founded, that's all.
"Also the Franks were in France forever unlike the Muslism who had to flee to North Africa when the Reconquista was done. "
The decendants of Franks in France lost their culture to the gallo-roman one (language, religion, etc.), they didn't stay in France with a germanic culture.
Ididn't say that Spanish foods or music are derived from Arabic ones...
Of course Spanish food have a basis roman mediterranean roots (olive oil, wine): which is not of Arabic origin. But it is also clear that Spanish food (especially in the south) has stron arabic influences.
In term of music, there is even a term that describe it: "musique arabo-amdalouse" (arabo-andalucian music, http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musique_arabo-andalouse). This influenced Spanish music (and even European and world), thru the introduction in Spain of Guitar (what would be spanish music without guitar? http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitare#Origines )
" Once the Muslims were defeated even in Seville, the most southern city in Europe perhaps, gothic buildings like those in the North of Europe were built for example. Muslim style was abandoned . "
Gothic style, contrary to what the name let think, it is not a northern European style, it has been called "gothic" much later in a pejorative way.
It originated around Paris, and only after spread to northern Europe, in some areas like Germany or a little bit in England (most gothic in England is "neogothic", which emulated only some aspects of gothic architecture), and above all in Spain. But contrary to what you said, Spanish gothic architecture had definitly its own characters that came mainly from the Arabic influence.
The art that was born in christian areas, by the fusion of the previous islamic art with gothic and ibero-roman architectures is the "arte mudejar" ( http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arte_mud%C3%A9jar ). This fusion influenced the basis of Spanish architecture that developped after the reconquista. Many typically spanish and Portuguese decorative elements such as Azulejos (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azulejo) are directly derivative to muslim decorative arts. Also the presence of patios-organizated urbanism, especially in the south is in big part or arabic origins (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Patio_de_C%C3%B3rdoba.jpg)
" I would say the opposite, the Franks leaved more influence in France than the muslims in Spain."
exemples?
" In the end the Franks were Catholics like the Galorromans, whereas the Muslims were Muslims , another different religion and value system."
The franks were not originally Catholics, they became only when they arrived in Roman Gaul. There is a good chance to believe that their relation to chritianism was that of "new-christians", much different to what old chiritians might be. It was the Gallo-romans that give their religion to the Franks (those who settle on their territory) and their language (to those who settled on gallo-roman territory), not the inverse!
" Not because they were "mediterranean" meant they had more in common with the Hispanorromans than let's say the Goths, unless you explain it more. "
Yes, there exist a mediterranean culture, which, inside different cultures has unifying elements that were brought by similar climatic conditions (so similar urbanistic features, common food products such as olive oil, etc.), and of course similar influences (don't forget that north African were were from also part of the Roman empire, and that they recieved also Phenicians or Greek colonies as well as Spain. Well, it is not hardly understandable that between Iberoromans and North Africans they were stronger and older relations than with a germanic (ex. Goths) tribe from the far north of Europe to which iberian peninsula hadn't much to see.
" Even the name "France" is due to the Franks. "
And? Andalucia get its name from Vandals, Catalonia from goths, Lombardy from lombards, etc. The germanic tribes when they took control of an area generally gave their name to the kingdoms they founded, that's all.
"Also the Franks were in France forever unlike the Muslism who had to flee to North Africa when the Reconquista was done. "
The decendants of Franks in France lost their culture to the gallo-roman one (language, religion, etc.), they didn't stay in France with a germanic culture.
<<Yes, there exist a mediterranean culture, which, inside different cultures has unifying elements that were brought by similar climatic conditions (so similar urbanistic features, common food products such as olive oil, etc.), and of course similar influences (don't forget that north African were were from also part of the Roman empire, and that they recieved also Phenicians or Greek colonies as well as Spain. Well, it is not hardly understandable that between Iberoromans and North Africans they were stronger and older relations than with a germanic (ex. Goths) tribe from the far north of Europe to which iberian peninsula hadn't much to see. >>
Climatic conditions were not the same in Spain and in most of North Africa and Arabia. The Muslims came from deserts and had not rivers and forests. Anyways there is not such thing as "mediterranean culture". See for example "urbanistic features" as you say in Rome (a Mediterranean city), or Athens and in any Moroccoan city, they have nothing to do. Cities were radically different in Greece and in the Muslim world despite both can be broadly considered "Mediterranean cultures.". The Goths may come from Northern Europe, but you forget that when they entered in Spain they were heavily Romanized since a long time ago, they spoke Latin, not their ancestral Gothing lanugage, and even had strong ties with the Bizantine culture. They were not Nordic at all, culturally speaking. So they had same religion , same culture and same language than the Hispanorromans. The Muslism spoke a different language, had different culture, and different religion.
<<And? Andalucia get its name from Vandals, Catalonia from goths, Lombardy from lombards, etc. The germanic tribes when they took control of an area generally gave their name to the kingdoms they founded, that's all. >>
No, Andalucia does not come from the Vandals, and Catalonia does not come from the Goths. The Vandals never settled permanently in Spain and the Goths settled in Central Spain, not Catalonia. France was ruled by the franks and created what is nowadays known as the French nation. Even Spain as nation has its origins in the Visigoth kindom but in the case of France it's much more obvious.
<<The decendants of Franks in France lost their culture to the gallo-roman one (language, religion, etc.), they didn't stay in France with a germanic culture.>> That they lost their language does not mean they didn't leave an impact on the French culture nor dissapeared from France.
Climatic conditions were not the same in Spain and in most of North Africa and Arabia. The Muslims came from deserts and had not rivers and forests. Anyways there is not such thing as "mediterranean culture". See for example "urbanistic features" as you say in Rome (a Mediterranean city), or Athens and in any Moroccoan city, they have nothing to do. Cities were radically different in Greece and in the Muslim world despite both can be broadly considered "Mediterranean cultures.". The Goths may come from Northern Europe, but you forget that when they entered in Spain they were heavily Romanized since a long time ago, they spoke Latin, not their ancestral Gothing lanugage, and even had strong ties with the Bizantine culture. They were not Nordic at all, culturally speaking. So they had same religion , same culture and same language than the Hispanorromans. The Muslism spoke a different language, had different culture, and different religion.
<<And? Andalucia get its name from Vandals, Catalonia from goths, Lombardy from lombards, etc. The germanic tribes when they took control of an area generally gave their name to the kingdoms they founded, that's all. >>
No, Andalucia does not come from the Vandals, and Catalonia does not come from the Goths. The Vandals never settled permanently in Spain and the Goths settled in Central Spain, not Catalonia. France was ruled by the franks and created what is nowadays known as the French nation. Even Spain as nation has its origins in the Visigoth kindom but in the case of France it's much more obvious.
<<The decendants of Franks in France lost their culture to the gallo-roman one (language, religion, etc.), they didn't stay in France with a germanic culture.>> That they lost their language does not mean they didn't leave an impact on the French culture nor dissapeared from France.
<<No, Andalucia does not come from the Vandals, and Catalonia does not come from the Goths. >>
Yes they do
Yes they do
Ok, they do, but the reality is that they don't. I've heard these theories before I must confess, but they are baseless. In the case of Catalonia the name has the same root as Castile, l"and of castles". Another theory: land of the Cathars. What you say is a third one, nothing proved unlike the case of France and the Franks.
"Climatic conditions were not the same in Spain and in most of North Africa and Arabia."
climatic conditions in Spain is mostly the same than in Algerian coasts. This is especially true in Andalucia, which is only 15km from Morocco.
there are even deserts in southern Spain around Almeria (name of arabic origin, as well as Madrid (capital), Guadalajara, Sévilla 4th city), Murcia (7th Spanish city), many others... Guadalquivir (main spanish river) ...)
" The Muslims came from deserts and had not rivers and forests."
The muslism in Spain came mainly from North Africa, only a few mile across the mediterranean, from what is now Morrocco and Tunisan coasts.
In these places the climate is mediterranean, similar temperatures, similar landscapes,... growth similar cultures than the Spanish coasts...
" Anyways there is not such thing as "mediterranean culture". "
You should read Fernand Braudel/
" See for example "urbanistic features" as you say in Rome (a Mediterranean city), or Athens and in any Moroccoan city, they have nothing to do. "
if you look only superfically maybe you won't find them quite similar, but the the specialist they have really many similar aspects (and again much more if you compare to antic cities of Greece). Many writing have been made on this subject, available in every good library. To a good start, once again you can read Fernand Braudel.
Or just a look in google earth at sevilla vs a morrocan city to see the obvious similarities in the structure. better; go in holiday in Cordoba.
" The Goths may come from Northern Europe, but you forget that when they entered in Spain they were heavily Romanized since a long time ago, they spoke Latin, not their ancestral Gothing lanugage, and even had strong ties with the Bizantine culture. They were not Nordic at all, culturally speaking. So they had same religion , same culture and same language than the Hispanorromans. "
proofs?
" The Muslism spoke a different language, had different culture, and different religion "
Funny, before you spent your time saying how much the germanic culture influenced the Romance cultures (at the point they became mixed "germanic-latin"...), and now it is the inverse, you claim that they lost it immediatly, even before to enter... how could this influence could happened if the germanic tribes were not even germanic anymore when then entered??
The muslims that entered in Spain were mostly from North Africa, in regions that have been previously ruled by Romans for centuries, where there have been a Christianisation before the Islamisation. They were in contact with Greco-roman culture and Christianity (don't forget that Christianity doesn't come from the new-christianized northern Europe but from the middle east, like judaism and Islam. Three have basically the same roots middle eaterner roots, the whole middle eastern region have been under the Greek and Roman civilisations for millenias... nothing to compare with a few pagan tribes newly converted to Chritianity.
" The Vandals never settled permanently in Spain"
So, they did came back to northern Europe after having taking their yearly summer sun-tan?...
" the Goths settled in Central Spain, not Catalonia."
the goths ruled almost all the iberian peninsula for centuries the same way franks did, and they left their name to a part of it which was the cross road between both sides of the pireneans: that is to say Catalunia.
The name "catalunia" seem to originate to the fact that the Frankish entered into the "smanish march" (after the collapse of the wisigothic) called that way the first area they reach in the iberian peninsula because it was formerly visigothic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigothic_Kingdom
strangely enouth the old town of barcelona is name "barri gotic" (gothic district)...
" France was ruled by the franks and created what is nowadays known as the French nation. "
No, I think you've missed a revolution. The Franks created the realm of the Franks, which became the Frankish empire. This empire was divided in three parts, one of them only, which corresponded more or less to the romance-speaking areas, became the kingdom of France (firslty kingdom of Francia occidentalis).
This long-lasting realm originally founded and rule by Frankish people (and then by their descendants), has been complelty destroyed by a very hard republican revolution during which all the previous strutures were erased, the nobility has been expelled, forced to flee, or killed. The former country stopped to exist.
The basis of the modern nation we know now were moslty founded by the revolutionaries and with Napoleon Bonaparte, not by the Franks.
What we call now the French republic has few to see with Franks despite the fact it eventually inheritated it by the hasards of history.
" Even Spain as nation has its origins in the Visigoth kindom but in the case of France it's much more obvious. "
In France is is much less obvious (it is not at all anymore) since we had a revolution and the Spanish did not. Spanish kingdom continue to be sort of herency of the catolic northern kingdoms, which themselves were a continuation of visigotic kingdom.
" That they lost their language does not mean they didn't leave an impact on the French culture nor dissapeared from France. "
well, nobody here is able to say precisely in what this "so obvious", huge influence that made French culture as much germanic than latin had left this "so visible obvious impact"... that's doesn't seem so obvious then...
That they have leave some impact I'm not against, especially in the regions that bordered the cultural border with Frankish-spekaing areas, but those influences are largely very mimor and almost unnoticeable.
climatic conditions in Spain is mostly the same than in Algerian coasts. This is especially true in Andalucia, which is only 15km from Morocco.
there are even deserts in southern Spain around Almeria (name of arabic origin, as well as Madrid (capital), Guadalajara, Sévilla 4th city), Murcia (7th Spanish city), many others... Guadalquivir (main spanish river) ...)
" The Muslims came from deserts and had not rivers and forests."
The muslism in Spain came mainly from North Africa, only a few mile across the mediterranean, from what is now Morrocco and Tunisan coasts.
In these places the climate is mediterranean, similar temperatures, similar landscapes,... growth similar cultures than the Spanish coasts...
" Anyways there is not such thing as "mediterranean culture". "
You should read Fernand Braudel/
" See for example "urbanistic features" as you say in Rome (a Mediterranean city), or Athens and in any Moroccoan city, they have nothing to do. "
if you look only superfically maybe you won't find them quite similar, but the the specialist they have really many similar aspects (and again much more if you compare to antic cities of Greece). Many writing have been made on this subject, available in every good library. To a good start, once again you can read Fernand Braudel.
Or just a look in google earth at sevilla vs a morrocan city to see the obvious similarities in the structure. better; go in holiday in Cordoba.
" The Goths may come from Northern Europe, but you forget that when they entered in Spain they were heavily Romanized since a long time ago, they spoke Latin, not their ancestral Gothing lanugage, and even had strong ties with the Bizantine culture. They were not Nordic at all, culturally speaking. So they had same religion , same culture and same language than the Hispanorromans. "
proofs?
" The Muslism spoke a different language, had different culture, and different religion "
Funny, before you spent your time saying how much the germanic culture influenced the Romance cultures (at the point they became mixed "germanic-latin"...), and now it is the inverse, you claim that they lost it immediatly, even before to enter... how could this influence could happened if the germanic tribes were not even germanic anymore when then entered??
The muslims that entered in Spain were mostly from North Africa, in regions that have been previously ruled by Romans for centuries, where there have been a Christianisation before the Islamisation. They were in contact with Greco-roman culture and Christianity (don't forget that Christianity doesn't come from the new-christianized northern Europe but from the middle east, like judaism and Islam. Three have basically the same roots middle eaterner roots, the whole middle eastern region have been under the Greek and Roman civilisations for millenias... nothing to compare with a few pagan tribes newly converted to Chritianity.
" The Vandals never settled permanently in Spain"
So, they did came back to northern Europe after having taking their yearly summer sun-tan?...
" the Goths settled in Central Spain, not Catalonia."
the goths ruled almost all the iberian peninsula for centuries the same way franks did, and they left their name to a part of it which was the cross road between both sides of the pireneans: that is to say Catalunia.
The name "catalunia" seem to originate to the fact that the Frankish entered into the "smanish march" (after the collapse of the wisigothic) called that way the first area they reach in the iberian peninsula because it was formerly visigothic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigothic_Kingdom
strangely enouth the old town of barcelona is name "barri gotic" (gothic district)...
" France was ruled by the franks and created what is nowadays known as the French nation. "
No, I think you've missed a revolution. The Franks created the realm of the Franks, which became the Frankish empire. This empire was divided in three parts, one of them only, which corresponded more or less to the romance-speaking areas, became the kingdom of France (firslty kingdom of Francia occidentalis).
This long-lasting realm originally founded and rule by Frankish people (and then by their descendants), has been complelty destroyed by a very hard republican revolution during which all the previous strutures were erased, the nobility has been expelled, forced to flee, or killed. The former country stopped to exist.
The basis of the modern nation we know now were moslty founded by the revolutionaries and with Napoleon Bonaparte, not by the Franks.
What we call now the French republic has few to see with Franks despite the fact it eventually inheritated it by the hasards of history.
" Even Spain as nation has its origins in the Visigoth kindom but in the case of France it's much more obvious. "
In France is is much less obvious (it is not at all anymore) since we had a revolution and the Spanish did not. Spanish kingdom continue to be sort of herency of the catolic northern kingdoms, which themselves were a continuation of visigotic kingdom.
" That they lost their language does not mean they didn't leave an impact on the French culture nor dissapeared from France. "
well, nobody here is able to say precisely in what this "so obvious", huge influence that made French culture as much germanic than latin had left this "so visible obvious impact"... that's doesn't seem so obvious then...
That they have leave some impact I'm not against, especially in the regions that bordered the cultural border with Frankish-spekaing areas, but those influences are largely very mimor and almost unnoticeable.
Man, you should take a few lessons about History. Didn't you know that the Goths spoke Latin before they settled in Spain?I will not waste my time with you.
Vandalusia - land of the Vandals
Gauthalandia - land of the Goths
I suppose the term "Germans of the South" doesn't mean anything Genius
Gauthalandia - land of the Goths
I suppose the term "Germans of the South" doesn't mean anything Genius