It's Andalucia, not Vandalucia, and "Gauthalandia" never existed. You can say as well Gothlandia, but it's an invention. In Spain we know the Catalans as "phoenicians", not as "the Germans of the South".
What makes French a Latin-Germanic mixed language
<<There are few villages in North Italy with Germanic names. >>.Maybe you mean South Tyrol-Trentino Alto Adige (Bolzano-Bozen)?This territory was a part of Austria-Hungary , annexed by Italy in 1919.There live German speaking people.
German language dialects are currently spoken in areas of Vicenza and Verona(Italy).These areas are to the south from Trentino-Alto Adige,where German language is official (with Italian).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbrian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbrian
If so many regions in Romance area are named after the tribes of their (now Romance speaking) Germanic inhabitants (Lombardia, Bourgogne, France, Normandie, Lorraine, Alsace etc.), why should Catalonia (=Gauthalandia - land of the Goths) and Andalusia (Vandalusia - land of the Vandals) be an exception?
Example how place names were changing from Germanic to Romance:
http://www.trois-frontieres.be/D/bleyb_plomb.php
http://www.trois-frontieres.be/D/bleyb_plomb.php
Oh my Godess. Andalucia comes from Al-Andalusiya, an Arabic term, and Catalonia is not gothic because the Goths settled in Central Spain (Castile). There are very few towns with Germanic names in Spain like Wamba or Burgos, but these are not in Catalonia.
"Andalucia comes from Al-Andalusiya, an Arabic term"
An Arabic term which itself refered to the land from were the Vandals left Europe for North Africa (Spain).
Do'nt forget that Arabic colinization is about 3 centuries after the Vandal settlement in Spain, and then in the regions of North Africa from where
" and Catalonia is not gothic because the Goths settled in Central Spain (Castile). "
The visigotic kingdom was almost in all of Spain Catalunia was wisigotic for 4 centuries, and was actually the last part of visigotic kingdom before islamisation from the south took over (but quikly reintegrated in christendom by the Frankish empire).
An Arabic term which itself refered to the land from were the Vandals left Europe for North Africa (Spain).
Do'nt forget that Arabic colinization is about 3 centuries after the Vandal settlement in Spain, and then in the regions of North Africa from where
" and Catalonia is not gothic because the Goths settled in Central Spain (Castile). "
The visigotic kingdom was almost in all of Spain Catalunia was wisigotic for 4 centuries, and was actually the last part of visigotic kingdom before islamisation from the south took over (but quikly reintegrated in christendom by the Frankish empire).
That the whole Iberian peninsula was entirely visigoth does not mean the Visigoths settled uniformly across all the Spanish territory. For example the Franks ruled the whole France but they settled in Northern France, in the South there are not villages with Frankish names. The same happens in Spain with the Visigoths. As for the Vandals, they entered in Spain briefly and after a year or two migrated to Tunisia. They didn't settle permanently in Andalusia, so it's impossible that they gave the name to that region.
Wrong, the last part of the Visigothic kingdom to be Islamized was Northern Spain (Asturias to be more precissely). North Central spain fall under the Islamic rule , but was conquered by the Christian forces as soon as in the case of Northern Catalonia (southern Catalonia remained under Islamic rule until 1230 or so).In fact Northern Spain (Asturias, Cantabria , some of Basque Country) were never Islamized whereas Northern Catalonia and Septimania(Narbonne) were under Islamic control for a few decades until the Franks retook them. Catalonia has more to do with the Franks than with the Visigoths.
" For example the Franks ruled the whole France but they settled in Northern France, in the South there are not villages with Frankish names."
most of times they rule France (among other places), from what is now Belgium or Germany; Aachen (Aix-la-Chapelle) is far to be in northern France. don't forget that the core of Frankish empire was (and still in many ways) in what is now the Netherlands, Belgium or western Germany, not France.
" Catalonia has more to do with the Franks than with the Visigoths"
maybe, but the Franks used to think whole iberian peninsula as being "visigotic" . So when they arrive and settled to what is now Catalunia, for them it was "Gothalunia..." land of goths
most of times they rule France (among other places), from what is now Belgium or Germany; Aachen (Aix-la-Chapelle) is far to be in northern France. don't forget that the core of Frankish empire was (and still in many ways) in what is now the Netherlands, Belgium or western Germany, not France.
" Catalonia has more to do with the Franks than with the Visigoths"
maybe, but the Franks used to think whole iberian peninsula as being "visigotic" . So when they arrive and settled to what is now Catalunia, for them it was "Gothalunia..." land of goths
What is "Northern France"? Cambray-Cameryck, Arras-Atrecht,Lille-Ryssel (now in Northern France) were cities of the Netherlands-part of Holy Roman Empire of German nation.
but the Franks used to think whole iberian peninsula as being "visigotic" . So when they arrive and settled to what is now Catalunia, for them it was "Gothalunia
Southern France was gothic as well before the Franks conquered it but they didn't called "land of the Goths". Catalonia has different meaning.
The core of the Frankish kingdom was Paris, not the Netherlands. That they switched to a Romance language does not mean they were less Frankish.
Southern France was gothic as well before the Franks conquered it but they didn't called "land of the Goths". Catalonia has different meaning.
The core of the Frankish kingdom was Paris, not the Netherlands. That they switched to a Romance language does not mean they were less Frankish.
" Southern France was gothic as well before the Franks conquered it but they didn't called "land of the Goths". "
It is true that southern France was visigothic during the period of the kingdom of Toulouse (it lasted about one century, from the first settlements in 418 in Aquitaine, to their expulsion by Franks in 554 when visigotics moved their capital to Toledo)
But for the next 3 centuries, the visigotic kingdom was associated by the frankish kingdom with the area south of pyrenees+Septinamia. It was usually called the land of goths.
http://www.hist-europe.fr/moyenage1/carte1/wisigoth2.jpg
" but they didn't called "land of the Goths".
Wrong. As I say it before Septimania (wich included part of Catalunia) was traditionally called Gothie. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquisat_de_Gothie
Catalonia is just south of it. For Franks, the region around Barcelona seemed naturally the continuation of Gothia.
Barcelona has been one big important seat of gotic counts. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comt%C3%A9_de_Barcelone
Not surprising that old town is still name "barri gotic" (gotic district)
" The core of the Frankish kingdom was Paris, not the Netherlands. "
Not true. Let's see the areas once dominated by the Frankish.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Frankish_Empire_481_to_814-fr.svg
It is obvious that the Frankish realms were centred around Austrasia, on both side of the Rhine, in what is now Belgium, Netherlands, big part of western to central Germany, and some areas of modern France such as Nord-pas-de-Calais and Lorraine. Then you'll have the regions that traditionally spoke Frankish dialects: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francique
This is the core of Frankish area, along the Rhine. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francique
The "core" of frankish kigdoms was not Paris at all. The Frankish rulers until capetians (even then not quite...) were itenerant people still attached to a sort of "nomadic" way of ruling (reglary changing "capitals" places was a appropriate way of ruling areas were other culture were present, it was a way of saying "we are here")
Paris has been choosen as the capital of Clovis kingdom in 508 (after Tournai (Belgium) and Soissons in 486). But the kingdom was divided (Neustria, Austrisia, Burgondy, Aquitaine, ect.). During the merovingian dynasties the power was very divided and never in the same place. The fact is that is was in the areas that comes from Flanders to Rhinevalley that represented the core of Frankish peoples kingdoms.
When the realm began to unify itself, It was ruled from there. It is not a suprise that Charlemagne was from this area, and rule the whole empire from Aachen, a Frankish-speaking region, in Germany, not From the "colonial" Paris.
Paris became really a capital in the sence of central area later, when western francia was separated from the germanic carolingian kingdoms since a lot time. During Capetians Orleans was prefered over Paris, The royal power seemd to have been fixed progressiveley to Paris, that became capital of the kingdom starting from Louis VI (1108-1137) and even more during Philippe Auguste (1179–1223).
" That they switched to a Romance language does not mean they were less Frankish. "
Yes. Ater have left their frankish language, the germanic Frankish rulers of Gaul were not frankish anymore, but became French, that is to say romance-speaking inhabitants of France, alongside with the former Roman population.
It is true that southern France was visigothic during the period of the kingdom of Toulouse (it lasted about one century, from the first settlements in 418 in Aquitaine, to their expulsion by Franks in 554 when visigotics moved their capital to Toledo)
But for the next 3 centuries, the visigotic kingdom was associated by the frankish kingdom with the area south of pyrenees+Septinamia. It was usually called the land of goths.
http://www.hist-europe.fr/moyenage1/carte1/wisigoth2.jpg
" but they didn't called "land of the Goths".
Wrong. As I say it before Septimania (wich included part of Catalunia) was traditionally called Gothie. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquisat_de_Gothie
Catalonia is just south of it. For Franks, the region around Barcelona seemed naturally the continuation of Gothia.
Barcelona has been one big important seat of gotic counts. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comt%C3%A9_de_Barcelone
Not surprising that old town is still name "barri gotic" (gotic district)
" The core of the Frankish kingdom was Paris, not the Netherlands. "
Not true. Let's see the areas once dominated by the Frankish.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Frankish_Empire_481_to_814-fr.svg
It is obvious that the Frankish realms were centred around Austrasia, on both side of the Rhine, in what is now Belgium, Netherlands, big part of western to central Germany, and some areas of modern France such as Nord-pas-de-Calais and Lorraine. Then you'll have the regions that traditionally spoke Frankish dialects: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francique
This is the core of Frankish area, along the Rhine. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francique
The "core" of frankish kigdoms was not Paris at all. The Frankish rulers until capetians (even then not quite...) were itenerant people still attached to a sort of "nomadic" way of ruling (reglary changing "capitals" places was a appropriate way of ruling areas were other culture were present, it was a way of saying "we are here")
Paris has been choosen as the capital of Clovis kingdom in 508 (after Tournai (Belgium) and Soissons in 486). But the kingdom was divided (Neustria, Austrisia, Burgondy, Aquitaine, ect.). During the merovingian dynasties the power was very divided and never in the same place. The fact is that is was in the areas that comes from Flanders to Rhinevalley that represented the core of Frankish peoples kingdoms.
When the realm began to unify itself, It was ruled from there. It is not a suprise that Charlemagne was from this area, and rule the whole empire from Aachen, a Frankish-speaking region, in Germany, not From the "colonial" Paris.
Paris became really a capital in the sence of central area later, when western francia was separated from the germanic carolingian kingdoms since a lot time. During Capetians Orleans was prefered over Paris, The royal power seemd to have been fixed progressiveley to Paris, that became capital of the kingdom starting from Louis VI (1108-1137) and even more during Philippe Auguste (1179–1223).
" That they switched to a Romance language does not mean they were less Frankish. "
Yes. Ater have left their frankish language, the germanic Frankish rulers of Gaul were not frankish anymore, but became French, that is to say romance-speaking inhabitants of France, alongside with the former Roman population.
<< Wrong. As I say it before Septimania (wich included part of Catalunia) was traditionally called Gothie. >>
Map of France in 1030, with the Marquisate of Gothia :
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_France_1030-fr.svg
Septimania :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimania
Map of France in 1030, with the Marquisate of Gothia :
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_France_1030-fr.svg
Septimania :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimania
That genetic study is actually not something that Wikipedia made up. Admittedly Wikipedia is not reliable and I wouldn't dare use it for a paper or anything like that heh, but the genetic study that Alessandro posted on Sicilians has been published before and below is the link that is provided by a group of population geneticists and anthropologists. 37% for Greeks and 6% from North Africans makes perfect sense to me.
In my humble opinion, this study coincides quite neatly with history. Although it is known that medieval Arab and Berber immigrants from North Africa came to Sicily in large numbers, founded dozens of towns, repopulated Palermo, and established the Arabic language and Islam on the island, it is also true that as much as half of the population was still composed of Greek-speaking Orthodox Christians. Furthermore, much of the reason behind the growth of Arabic and Islam was due to the assimilation of many native Sicilians (Greek or Latin in language/culture) to the dominant Muslim Arab civilization in order to escape prejudice and the payment of heavy taxes. It was also a crime at the time for a Muslim to convert to Christianity, so you can be nearly certain that none of the Christians were of Arab and/or Berber origin.
Next came the Norman conquest of Sicily in the 11th century. The Norman conquerors were tolerant of the Greek and Arabic cultures present in Sicily, although they still favored the imposition of Roman Catholicism and Latin speech at the relative expense of the other cultures, which is precisely what occurred during this period. The Normans fostered Latinization largely by encouraging immigration from the Italian mainland and from France. The speech of the Italian immigrants, along with the French and Norman-French, gradually evolved into a unique Sicilian language of primarily Romance origin, but which naturally absorbed a great many Greek and Arabic words.
Simultaneously to the Norman conquest and continuing immigration of Italians and Frenchmen to Sicily, many Muslims (largely of Arab/Berber origin) left the island for Muslim lands, and later during the 12th century, Frederick II (the last of the Norman heirs) expelled many of them from Sicily after repeated uprisings. The remaining Muslim minority on the island gradually converted to Christianity, adopted Latin speech, and was absorbed into the Sicilian population.
As for the Greek-speaking Orthodox Christians, they were also assimilated into the population and became Catholics of Romance speech, although pockets of eastern and northeastern Sicily continued to be Greek-speaking right up until the Renaissance period.
Therefore, I'm not surprised at all by the rather low figure of only 6% North African genes in Sicily. Most Sicilians physically resemble other Italians and/or Greeks, as the history illustrated above suggests. Most North African immigrants seen in Sicily today are quite dark, easily distinguished from most Sicilians. Although a sub-Saharan genetic component in today's North Africans is partially responsible for this (medieval North Africans had little if any sub-Saharan admixture since that period was prior to the widescale implementation of the trans-Saharan slave trade), this phenomenon has more to do with the primarily Greek/Italian/European ancestry of Sicilians.
Here's the link to the study:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html
In my humble opinion, this study coincides quite neatly with history. Although it is known that medieval Arab and Berber immigrants from North Africa came to Sicily in large numbers, founded dozens of towns, repopulated Palermo, and established the Arabic language and Islam on the island, it is also true that as much as half of the population was still composed of Greek-speaking Orthodox Christians. Furthermore, much of the reason behind the growth of Arabic and Islam was due to the assimilation of many native Sicilians (Greek or Latin in language/culture) to the dominant Muslim Arab civilization in order to escape prejudice and the payment of heavy taxes. It was also a crime at the time for a Muslim to convert to Christianity, so you can be nearly certain that none of the Christians were of Arab and/or Berber origin.
Next came the Norman conquest of Sicily in the 11th century. The Norman conquerors were tolerant of the Greek and Arabic cultures present in Sicily, although they still favored the imposition of Roman Catholicism and Latin speech at the relative expense of the other cultures, which is precisely what occurred during this period. The Normans fostered Latinization largely by encouraging immigration from the Italian mainland and from France. The speech of the Italian immigrants, along with the French and Norman-French, gradually evolved into a unique Sicilian language of primarily Romance origin, but which naturally absorbed a great many Greek and Arabic words.
Simultaneously to the Norman conquest and continuing immigration of Italians and Frenchmen to Sicily, many Muslims (largely of Arab/Berber origin) left the island for Muslim lands, and later during the 12th century, Frederick II (the last of the Norman heirs) expelled many of them from Sicily after repeated uprisings. The remaining Muslim minority on the island gradually converted to Christianity, adopted Latin speech, and was absorbed into the Sicilian population.
As for the Greek-speaking Orthodox Christians, they were also assimilated into the population and became Catholics of Romance speech, although pockets of eastern and northeastern Sicily continued to be Greek-speaking right up until the Renaissance period.
Therefore, I'm not surprised at all by the rather low figure of only 6% North African genes in Sicily. Most Sicilians physically resemble other Italians and/or Greeks, as the history illustrated above suggests. Most North African immigrants seen in Sicily today are quite dark, easily distinguished from most Sicilians. Although a sub-Saharan genetic component in today's North Africans is partially responsible for this (medieval North Africans had little if any sub-Saharan admixture since that period was prior to the widescale implementation of the trans-Saharan slave trade), this phenomenon has more to do with the primarily Greek/Italian/European ancestry of Sicilians.
Here's the link to the study:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html