What makes French a Latin-Germanic mixed language
just a comment Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:18 pm GMT
" The effects of the centuries lastic close contact (language and inter marriage) of Latin and Germanic are obvious "
nobody denies that in bordering regions areas, the latin and germanic civilisations had contacts, you're right, that is obvious.
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Contact was not in "bordering regions areas", since Germanic peoples invaded the Roman Empire and its centre, Rome, - they were not just neighbours....
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The latin countrie (especially Spain and Portugal) had more long lasting very close contacts with Arabo-muslim civilisation, that doesn't make them Arabic-Latin mixed cultures, and even less makes Spanish a arabo-latin language.
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No analogy possible since the muslim way of cultural and linguistical cohabitation is completely differen to the Germanic one.
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you have probably some true historic facts concerning the early middle ages (but need sources) but you make wrong interpretations concerning the modern countries to contruct your own interpretation and own wishes concerning the modern countries of Europe.
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Historic facts indicating and explaning the heavy Germanic bach ground of European population and culture are the many Germanic words, grammatical structures, morphologies, place names, names of regions (Normandy etc.) , personal first and second names, cimeteries, law books, written historical reports etc. in today Romance areas.
greg Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:00 am GMT
Ouest : « Your statement contradicts canonical substrate and superstrate theories ».
"Théories" que, malheureusement, tu n'as pas cru bon de préciser en quoi et comment elles s'appliquaient au cas qui nous occupe. Il va de soi que les éclaircissements attendus doivent être de nature exclusivement LINGUISTIQUE : le reste (jugements de valeur, digressions historicopsychosocioculturelles, ADN, onomastique, syllogismes et autres sophismes) étant par nature étranger à la preuve qu'il te revient d'apporter si tu veux être pris au sérieux.
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Modern linguistic science use ALL kind of information to create a consistent picture of the "dark" middle ages - please inform yourself
Just a commend:
what id true is that the proportion of Frankish speaking people in the whole Frankish empire was important (probably much higher than 25%, depending of the periods it must be over the majority of the population that was Germanic-speaking: most of these areas are part of what is now Belgium, Netherlands, germany, French Flanders, Moselle and Alsace.
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Walter von Wartburg speaks of the Latin/Vulgar Latin/Romance speaking areas of Neustria North of the Loire: there he estimates, based on the Germanic elements of French language, a percentage of 25%. The real number could be 75%, 50% or 12,5%, but 1-2% are excluded.
Guest Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:43 pm GMT
Arabo-muslim civilisation, that doesn't make them Arabic-Latin mixed cultures, and even less makes Spanish a arabo-latin language.
You are right, Even more, Spanish (nor Portuguese) is not the most influenced Romance language by Arabic. There existed one called Mozarabic , now extinct, that had many more Arabic words, for example "cid" instead of señor, "habibi" (querido, amor), etc... 40% of vocabulary was Arabic and practically all the Spanish words that derive from Arabic are not loanwords from Arabic directly but entered from this Romance language. Also another interesting thing about Mozarabic is that its morphology was closer to Latin than to Romance languages. It preserved the initial latin F, lost in Spanish (formica vs hormiga), etc... So despite vocabulary was more Arabized it was more "Latin" than Spanish.
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Mozarabic (Arabic-Latin mix) is now extinct, because Muslims were beaten by Germanics in Poitier and other places and finally expelled by Visigothic reconquista
Romance languages (Germanic-Latin mixtures) live until today because Germanics were able to win the decesive battles against the Sarazens and the Huns and the Turks and never were expelled from Europe.
Ouest : « Modern linguistic science use ALL kind of information to create a consistent picture of the "dark" middle ages - please inform yourself ».
Tu es gentil mais je te retourne le compliment. Tu ne connais ni le sens de « linguistique » — ça saute aux yeux — ni celui de « moderne » — il suffit de te voir exhumer des théories cadavéreuses pour s'en convaincre. Non content de tourner le dos au phénomène linguistique qui te hante, tes analyses retardent d'au moins cent ans : c'est comme si tu voulais réparer un ordi avec un éclat de silex...
Ouest : « Walter von Wartburg speaks of the Latin/Vulgar Latin/Romance speaking areas of Neustria North of the Loire: there he estimates, ***BASED ON THE GERMANIC ELEMENTS OF FRENCH LANGUAGE***, a percentage of 25%. ».
Te voilà face à l'aporie de la démarche du siècle dernier :
→ je prends un corpus K (que je réduis au lexique) ;
→ j'affirme, sans le démontrer, que 25 % de K est un emprunt au germanique ;
→ j'extrapole le taux de 25 % à non-K, c'est-à-dire à la langue française ;
→ et en déduis que si le quart du français est germanique, c'est donc que le métissage des corps s'est traduit par une langue métisse.
Le plus dramatique n'est pas l'inanité du "raisonnement", ni même les abyssales failles épistémologiques : la régression intellectuelle c'est qu'on puisse entériner ces sottises sans sourciller. Propager ces âneries sans aucun questionnement constitue une faillite totale de la pensée.
Ouest : << Mozarabic (Arabic-Latin mix) is now extinct, because Muslims were beaten by Germanics in Poitier and other places and finally expelled by Visigothic reconquista
Romance languages (Germanic-Latin mixtures) live until today because Germanics were able to win the decesive battles against the Sarazens and the Huns and the Turks and never were expelled from Europe. >>
You mean Romance languages are partly Germanic?
"Romance languages (Germanic-Latin mixtures) live until today because Germanics were able to win the decesive battles against the Sarazens and the Huns and the Turks and never were expelled from Europe..."
n'importe quoi, les langues romanes sont toujours là car les peuples ont continué à les parler, les allemands n'ont rien à faire dans cette histoire. Sinon on parlerait tous allemands ou un dérivé, et ce n'est pas le cas.
Mozarabic (Arabic-Latin mix) is now extinct, because Muslims were beaten by Germanics in Poitier and other places and finally expelled by Visigothic reconquista
The Mozarabic speakers were Christians who lived in a Muslim society and many of them migrated from the zones controlled by the Muslims in Spain to the Christian kindgoms, carrying with them Arabic words that passed to Spanish. They didn't speak a Latin-Arabic mixture but a Romance language whose morphology was closer to Latin than modern Romance languages. Reconquista was made by the Hispanorromas, the Visigoths either converted to Islam or had to flee to France when the Muslim occupation took place.
Ouest, quelle est votre culture d'origine, votre langue maternelle ?
Je parie pour : Portugais.
greg Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:38 am GMT
Ouest : « Modern linguistic science use ALL kind of information to create a consistent picture of the "dark" middle ages - please inform yourself ».
Tu es gentil mais je te retourne le compliment. Tu ne connais ni le sens de « linguistique » — ça saute aux yeux — ni celui de « moderne » — il suffit de te voir exhumer des théories cadavéreuses pour s'en convaincre. Non content de tourner le dos au phénomène linguistique qui te hante, tes analyses retardent d'au moins cent ans : c'est comme si tu voulais réparer un ordi avec un éclat de silex...
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You seem to think that scientific findings are something like fashion, the more modern the better...
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Ouest : « Walter von Wartburg speaks of the Latin/Vulgar Latin/Romance speaking areas of Neustria North of the Loire: there he estimates, ***BASED ON THE GERMANIC ELEMENTS OF FRENCH LANGUAGE***, a percentage of 25%. ».
Te voilà face à l'aporie de la démarche du siècle dernier :
→ je prends un corpus K (que je réduis au lexique) ;
→ j'affirme, sans le démontrer, que 25 % de K est un emprunt au germanique ;
→ j'extrapole le taux de 25 % à non-K, c'est-à-dire à la langue française ;
→ et en déduis que si le quart du français est germanique, c'est donc que le métissage des corps s'est traduit par une langue métisse.
Le plus dramatique n'est pas l'inanité du "raisonnement", ni même les abyssales failles épistémologiques : la régression intellectuelle c'est qu'on puisse entériner ces sottises sans sourciller. Propager ces âneries sans aucun questionnement constitue une faillite totale de la pensée. ______________________________________
Walter von Wartburg wasn´t an idiot....
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Jeremi Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:00 pm GMT
"Romance languages (Germanic-Latin mixtures) live until today because Germanics were able to win the decesive battles against the Sarazens and the Huns and the Turks and never were expelled from Europe..."
n'importe quoi, les langues romanes sont toujours là car les peuples ont continué à les parler, les allemands n'ont rien à faire dans cette histoire. Sinon on parlerait tous allemands ou un dérivé, et ce n'est pas le cas.
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Romance IS the dérivé of Latin and German!
Reconquista was made by the Hispanorromas, the Visigoths either converted to Islam or had to flee to France when the Muslim occupation took place.
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This is pure wishful thinking and propaganda of Ibero-nationalists: read Wikipedia´s article about the Reconquista instead
<<Romance IS the dérivé of Latin and German! >>
@ Ouest, I believe you are right in this
This is pure wishful thinking and propaganda of Ibero-nationalists: read Wikipedia´s article about the Reconquista instead
Oh, wikipedia, the ultimate source of objective knowledge.
When the Reconquista finished the Visigoths were part of History, so how come they concluded the Reconquista process if they dissapeared from the map? Many Visigoth noblemen in fact collaborated wih the Muslim invaders and in some points their religion, Arian Christianism, was more similar to Islam than to Catholicism practised by the Hispanorromans, that's the reason why many of them, far from resisting to the Islamic invasion, embraced the new culture.
Did the "Germanics", or the Visigoths for the matter win the Lepanto battle as well against the Turks? LOL. NO, I'm not Ibero-nationalist or whatever shit you may think , but I'm tired of fucking nazis who say that anything heroic made by Spain is due to the stupid Visigoths when in reality they were a small minority of lords of war that received an splendid country and civilization (the Hispanorroman) and then the only thing they did was to fuck up the achievements of the Romans in Hispania and when the Muslims came to the shores of Iberia they only needed a few days to totally destroy the crappy Visigothoc kingdom. It's a pity that among all the Germanic tribes, Spain has the disgrace to be controlled by the dumbest one.
Ouest : <<You seem to think that scientific findings are something like fashion, the more modern the better... >>
- Do you think that, when it comes to scientific findings, the more ancient the better?
- What is, according to you, the purpose of "modern" scientific findings?
Ouest : <<Walter von Wartburg wasn´t an idiot...>>
Greg explained that there were major flaws in the methodology that was used to come up with the figure that you quoted (25%). To which you respond that Walter von Wartburg wasn't an idiot...
- Do you realize that Greg and you are not talking about the same thing?
- Would you agree that explaining the limits of a method isn't the same thing as calling someone an idiot?