I have the opposite experience of guest. I am a native Spanish speaker (from Spain) with no training in Portuguese or Italian. But when I hear Portuguese spoken (educated speakers from Portugal or Brazil), it's like I'm hearing a kind of variety of Spanish, and I understand it all pretty well - and of course everything from a Portuguese texts. But I only manage to catch maybe half of spoken Italian (educated speakers), and perhaps a little more than half of Italian texts. All of my Spanish speaking friends seem to have the same experience as me.
Lexical similarities between French-Spanish-Italian
Spanish is my mother tongue, I'm currently teaching my self Italian. I'v heard people speak in Portuguese, and I DO NOT understand what they are saying. in a sentence of 15 words I migh or will pick up 2 or 3 words that sound alike in Spanish. As for Italian, I can undertsand it pretty well when it's being spoken, and when I read a text in Italian I can understand what is writin. In my opinion French and Portugese are like, to many accents. As for French & Rumanian, they must be step brothers or something to Spanish... those two languages are Way off. But yes, Spanish & Portuguese are alike, when I see a Text in Portuguese, The words are so close to Spansh, But When Portugese is spoken I don't have a minimal idea about what I'm being told.
-->>>
Agreed. I too have the same experience.
-->>>
Agreed. I too have the same experience.
I guess a big part of being able to understand another language has a lot to do with ones own ability to learn and understand languages. I'm Italian, and I personally find Portuguese the easiest romance language to understand - - Spanish is too fast and I lose most of it. A few doors next to me are Portuguese and Spanish speaking people, and in the summer I hear them carrying on conversations effortlessly with one another in their own languages. I always wondered how they could do that. But after doing some research, it's no wonder why it's easy for Portuguese and Spanish speakers to communicate easily...their languages share almost the same vocabulary and word order. I envy that they can converse with one another with such ease. I know that Italians often think that they understand Spanish, for the longest time I thought I did, but when we try to communicate with them the reality is different. I speak standard Italian, and if I have trouble with Spanish, then those who speak an italian dialect will be lost for sure.
<<I'm Italian, and I personally find Portuguese the easiest romance language to understand - - Spanish is too fast and I lose most of it.>>
It's strange, I'm sure the pronunciation of Italian is more similar to the Spanish one (at least some versions of American Spanish)than the Portuguese one. I guess you have heard the Spaniard version only and probably that's why you find Spanish fast since Spaniards tend to speak faster than their American counterparts. The 'problem' for Spanish speaker with respect to Portuguese is that even if words are very similiar to the Spanish ones, they drop the last letters so you have to pay more attention to understand. With respect to Italian it doesn't happen but the words are not that similar.
To name just a couple of examples, the word in Portuguese 'mais'(more) is more similar, pronounced in Portuguese to the Spanish one 'más' than to the Italian one 'più'. The same happens with 'mucho', 'muito', 'molto' (much).
Of course there are much more or 'mucho más' or 'muito mais' or 'molto più'. :-)
It's strange, I'm sure the pronunciation of Italian is more similar to the Spanish one (at least some versions of American Spanish)than the Portuguese one. I guess you have heard the Spaniard version only and probably that's why you find Spanish fast since Spaniards tend to speak faster than their American counterparts. The 'problem' for Spanish speaker with respect to Portuguese is that even if words are very similiar to the Spanish ones, they drop the last letters so you have to pay more attention to understand. With respect to Italian it doesn't happen but the words are not that similar.
To name just a couple of examples, the word in Portuguese 'mais'(more) is more similar, pronounced in Portuguese to the Spanish one 'más' than to the Italian one 'più'. The same happens with 'mucho', 'muito', 'molto' (much).
Of course there are much more or 'mucho más' or 'muito mais' or 'molto più'. :-)
Here are some key words that Spanish / Portuguese share, and are not used in Italian:
Spanish..........................................Portuguese
tambien..........................................tambem
dia.................................................dia
tarde..............................................tarde
estoy..............................................estou
voy................................................vou
ir....................................................ir
frio.................................................frio
conmigo.........................................comigo
contigo..........................................contigo
quiero............................................quero
vamonos........................................vamos
entiendo/comprendo........................entendo/compreendo
para...............................................para
por................................................por
canzado.........................................cancado
vezes.............................................vezes
el...................................................ele
junto..............................................junto
procurar.........................................procurar
comer............................................comer
izquierda........................................esquerda
derecha..........................................direita
primero..........................................primeiro
nada..............................................nada
frente............................................frente
atras.............................................atras
encima...........................................encima
oir.................................................ouvir
ver................................................ver
bien..............................................bem
zapatos.........................................sapatos
pequeno........................................pequeno
nacimiento.....................................nascimento
traer.............................................trazer
otro..............................................outro
esperar.........................................esperar
pais..............................................pais
mas..............................................mais
trabajar.........................................trabalhar
gosar............................................gosar
bonito/a.........................................bonito/a
lindo/a...........................................lindo/a
fea/o.............................................feia/o
orgullo..........................................orgulho
hacienda.......................................fazenda
cuidad..........................................cidade
aldea............................................aldeia
fe.................................................fe
I could go on and on here, but you get the idea.
Spanish..........................................Portuguese
tambien..........................................tambem
dia.................................................dia
tarde..............................................tarde
estoy..............................................estou
voy................................................vou
ir....................................................ir
frio.................................................frio
conmigo.........................................comigo
contigo..........................................contigo
quiero............................................quero
vamonos........................................vamos
entiendo/comprendo........................entendo/compreendo
para...............................................para
por................................................por
canzado.........................................cancado
vezes.............................................vezes
el...................................................ele
junto..............................................junto
procurar.........................................procurar
comer............................................comer
izquierda........................................esquerda
derecha..........................................direita
primero..........................................primeiro
nada..............................................nada
frente............................................frente
atras.............................................atras
encima...........................................encima
oir.................................................ouvir
ver................................................ver
bien..............................................bem
zapatos.........................................sapatos
pequeno........................................pequeno
nacimiento.....................................nascimento
traer.............................................trazer
otro..............................................outro
esperar.........................................esperar
pais..............................................pais
mas..............................................mais
trabajar.........................................trabalhar
gosar............................................gosar
bonito/a.........................................bonito/a
lindo/a...........................................lindo/a
fea/o.............................................feia/o
orgullo..........................................orgulho
hacienda.......................................fazenda
cuidad..........................................cidade
aldea............................................aldeia
fe.................................................fe
I could go on and on here, but you get the idea.
Mr. Who, my Spanish speaking neighbours are from South America. So, if I can hardly understand them, it follows that I certainly won't be able to understand people from Spain who sound almost Greek when they speak. Personally, I think Portuguese gets an unfair asessment by Spanish and Italian speakers. Portuguese speakers from the Azores shouldn't be used when comparing Portuguese, Spanish and Italian accents, because the Azorean accent is generally very abrupt, unclear and harsh. My Portuguese speaking neighbours speak a Portuguese that is so clear and pleasing to the ear - they are from Lisbon, Portugal.
Because Italian and Portuguese share many words in common e.g., porta, morto, filho/a, forte, forca/forza, etc., sometimes Portuguese sounds like a certain kind of Italian spoken in parts of Italy. But the thing is that Spanish and Portuguese still share certain Iberianisms in their speech e.g. words of Arabic origin, and a much larger shared general vocabulary with one another. They also, for the most part, put words in sentences in the same order as when they write and speak. So, whatever is lost between them in accent is more than made up by these things. If a Spanish speaker says 'queso = cheese', how is an Italian speaker supposed to easily know that it means 'formaggio'? At least in Portuguese its 'queijo' - thus, the Portuguese would be able to put 2 and 2 together and figure it out. Cipriano has given us a list of many other such words that would be so easily identifiable in Portuguese and Spanish, but not in Italian.
And then there is Brazilian Portuguese, which because of certain verb conjugations and vocabulary, is perhaps even more intelligible to South American Spanish speakers. As an Italian speaker I am proud that we speak very melodiously and clearly, but that only goes so far before intelligibility invariably deteriorates between Italian and Spanish speakers. I've seen it happen time and again. Let's be honest and say things the way they really are. As an Italian, it doesn't bother me in the least that Portuguese and Spanish speakers have more common ground in terms of language....after all, they are neighbours in Europe and in South America. A brotherly relationship to say the least.
Because Italian and Portuguese share many words in common e.g., porta, morto, filho/a, forte, forca/forza, etc., sometimes Portuguese sounds like a certain kind of Italian spoken in parts of Italy. But the thing is that Spanish and Portuguese still share certain Iberianisms in their speech e.g. words of Arabic origin, and a much larger shared general vocabulary with one another. They also, for the most part, put words in sentences in the same order as when they write and speak. So, whatever is lost between them in accent is more than made up by these things. If a Spanish speaker says 'queso = cheese', how is an Italian speaker supposed to easily know that it means 'formaggio'? At least in Portuguese its 'queijo' - thus, the Portuguese would be able to put 2 and 2 together and figure it out. Cipriano has given us a list of many other such words that would be so easily identifiable in Portuguese and Spanish, but not in Italian.
And then there is Brazilian Portuguese, which because of certain verb conjugations and vocabulary, is perhaps even more intelligible to South American Spanish speakers. As an Italian speaker I am proud that we speak very melodiously and clearly, but that only goes so far before intelligibility invariably deteriorates between Italian and Spanish speakers. I've seen it happen time and again. Let's be honest and say things the way they really are. As an Italian, it doesn't bother me in the least that Portuguese and Spanish speakers have more common ground in terms of language....after all, they are neighbours in Europe and in South America. A brotherly relationship to say the least.
<<Personally, I think Portuguese gets an unfair asessment by Spanish and Italian
speakers.>>
What do you mean ?
<<Portuguese speakers from the Azores shouldn't be used when comparing Portuguese, Spanish and Italian accents,...>
This phenomena must be applied to almost all Spanish speaking countries of America: what you may find fast and unclear in the Spanish from a country, maybe not in the Spanish from other. For example there is an important contrast among the pronunciation of the Spanish from Cuba and Colombia, or Argentina and Venezuela, or Mexico and Nicaragua or any and Spain.
When I say that Spanish pronunciation is very similar to the Italian one I mean putting apart such regional accents, something like a more neutral or standard Spanish. I would bet that you could understand much more from a Spanish speaker reading a text in Italian than from a Portuguese speaker reading the same text, even both ignoring the Italian rules.
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not bashing any language, I love how Portuguese sounds at least the one from Brazil which is the only one I've heard.
speakers.>>
What do you mean ?
<<Portuguese speakers from the Azores shouldn't be used when comparing Portuguese, Spanish and Italian accents,...>
This phenomena must be applied to almost all Spanish speaking countries of America: what you may find fast and unclear in the Spanish from a country, maybe not in the Spanish from other. For example there is an important contrast among the pronunciation of the Spanish from Cuba and Colombia, or Argentina and Venezuela, or Mexico and Nicaragua or any and Spain.
When I say that Spanish pronunciation is very similar to the Italian one I mean putting apart such regional accents, something like a more neutral or standard Spanish. I would bet that you could understand much more from a Spanish speaker reading a text in Italian than from a Portuguese speaker reading the same text, even both ignoring the Italian rules.
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not bashing any language, I love how Portuguese sounds at least the one from Brazil which is the only one I've heard.
locco (in southern italy) *loco
di (in southern italy) *dia
tardo / tardi (italian) *tarde
Other words you haved mentioned in Spanish, are also used in Italian.
Udire=Oir
Bene=Bien
Vedere=Ver
Altro=Otro
Sto=Estoy
etc.
di (in southern italy) *dia
tardo / tardi (italian) *tarde
Other words you haved mentioned in Spanish, are also used in Italian.
Udire=Oir
Bene=Bien
Vedere=Ver
Altro=Otro
Sto=Estoy
etc.
I suppose you know Spain ruled over Southern Italy (Naples but especially Sicily and Sardinia) for a long while and quite a few Catalan and Spanish words remained there.
I suppose you know Spain ruled over Southern Italy (Naples but especially Sicily and Sardinia) for a long while and quite a few Catalan and Spanish words remained there.
--->>>>
True. In southern Italy they use 'tenere' instead of 'avere'.
For example:
Ho venti anni (Italian)
Tengo venti anni (Southern-italian)
Tengo veinte anos (Spanish)
--->>>>
True. In southern Italy they use 'tenere' instead of 'avere'.
For example:
Ho venti anni (Italian)
Tengo venti anni (Southern-italian)
Tengo veinte anos (Spanish)
Udire=Oir ('Ouvir' in Portuguese closer to Spanish - the 'u and e' in Italian throws it off)
Bene=Bien ('Bem' - in Portuguese sounds closer to
Spanish - the extra e in Italian throws off the sound)
Vedere=Ver ('guardare' in Italian is more commonly used - In Spanish and Portuguese it's the same word 'Ver')
Altro=Otro (Outro in Portuguese is closer to 'Otro' in Spanish)
Sto=Estoy (the Portuguese 'Estou' is still closer to Spanish)
The equivalent Italian words you provide are not as similar to the Portuguese and Spanish equivalents.
And secondly, some of the words you give i.e., 'vedere' would not typically be used...'Guardare' would be more commonly used instead. Your line of reasoning is like saying that the Italian word 'Danaro' is like the Spanish 'Dinero' and Portugese 'Dinheiro', when in fact the word 'Soldi' is what the majority of Italians would typically use to say 'money.
Lastly, some people in this forum have said that Italian dialects should not be used to compare to Standard Spanish. Yet, some of you repeatedly refer to Italian words of various dialects to make comparisons. It thought the standards are what we were sticking to. In Portugal, the words that are used are pretty much used uniformally by everyone, save the odd word. If we are going to stick to standards to facilitate clear discussion in this forum, thens let's stick to the language standards. It's less confusing this way. It's frustrating when we are discussing intelligibilty and comparing words between Spanish, Italian and Portuguese, and then someone says, 'oh, but in Calabria such and such a word is used instead.' You can't have it both ways.
When we are talking about levels of intelligibility between Spanish, Poruguese and italian, we should be talking about the standard...the way people are taught these languages at school. That said, I agree with some of the other contributors in this forum that Spanish and Portuguese speakers can communicate the easiest with one another. Italian is close, in fact some Portuguese speakers usually understand it reasonably well, but...being totally fluent in Spanish and Portuguese, I'm here to say that Portuguese and Spanish are much closer languages to one another, than either of them is to Ialian. And forget the accent argument. If an unrecognizable word is spoken, it doesn't matter how nicely you enunciate that word, or how nicely you decorate it or put sugar on top of it, the listener will not know what that word is. Barring hand gestures, the only way a listener will understand the meaning of a said word in a different language, albeit one from the same language family, is if an identical or very similar exists in his/her own language. Again, we are talking about 'standards', not 'dialects'.
Bene=Bien ('Bem' - in Portuguese sounds closer to
Spanish - the extra e in Italian throws off the sound)
Vedere=Ver ('guardare' in Italian is more commonly used - In Spanish and Portuguese it's the same word 'Ver')
Altro=Otro (Outro in Portuguese is closer to 'Otro' in Spanish)
Sto=Estoy (the Portuguese 'Estou' is still closer to Spanish)
The equivalent Italian words you provide are not as similar to the Portuguese and Spanish equivalents.
And secondly, some of the words you give i.e., 'vedere' would not typically be used...'Guardare' would be more commonly used instead. Your line of reasoning is like saying that the Italian word 'Danaro' is like the Spanish 'Dinero' and Portugese 'Dinheiro', when in fact the word 'Soldi' is what the majority of Italians would typically use to say 'money.
Lastly, some people in this forum have said that Italian dialects should not be used to compare to Standard Spanish. Yet, some of you repeatedly refer to Italian words of various dialects to make comparisons. It thought the standards are what we were sticking to. In Portugal, the words that are used are pretty much used uniformally by everyone, save the odd word. If we are going to stick to standards to facilitate clear discussion in this forum, thens let's stick to the language standards. It's less confusing this way. It's frustrating when we are discussing intelligibilty and comparing words between Spanish, Italian and Portuguese, and then someone says, 'oh, but in Calabria such and such a word is used instead.' You can't have it both ways.
When we are talking about levels of intelligibility between Spanish, Poruguese and italian, we should be talking about the standard...the way people are taught these languages at school. That said, I agree with some of the other contributors in this forum that Spanish and Portuguese speakers can communicate the easiest with one another. Italian is close, in fact some Portuguese speakers usually understand it reasonably well, but...being totally fluent in Spanish and Portuguese, I'm here to say that Portuguese and Spanish are much closer languages to one another, than either of them is to Ialian. And forget the accent argument. If an unrecognizable word is spoken, it doesn't matter how nicely you enunciate that word, or how nicely you decorate it or put sugar on top of it, the listener will not know what that word is. Barring hand gestures, the only way a listener will understand the meaning of a said word in a different language, albeit one from the same language family, is if an identical or very similar exists in his/her own language. Again, we are talking about 'standards', not 'dialects'.
To: Cipriano
The fact of the matter is that spanish-speakers prefer Italian, more so, then portuguese. And you can take that to the bank. On that note, Italian is closer to pronunciation and somewhat vocabulary, which facilitates learning / comprehension. Yes, portuguese is closer to spanish in vocabulary and grammar, however it's pronunciation is waaay off.
Furthermore I'm suspect you're a biased contributor to Antimoon.
According to this example: French, Portuguese & Italian are closer in grammar. While Latin and Spanish are close in grammar.
Observe:
Lei chiude sempre la finestra prima di cenare. (Italian)
Elle ferme toujours la fenêtre avant de dîner. (French)
Ela fecha sempre a janela antes de jantar. (Portuguese)
Ella siempre cierra la ventana antes de cenar. (Spanish)
Ea semper fenestram claudit antequam cenet. (Latin)
Best regards,
The fact of the matter is that spanish-speakers prefer Italian, more so, then portuguese. And you can take that to the bank. On that note, Italian is closer to pronunciation and somewhat vocabulary, which facilitates learning / comprehension. Yes, portuguese is closer to spanish in vocabulary and grammar, however it's pronunciation is waaay off.
Furthermore I'm suspect you're a biased contributor to Antimoon.
According to this example: French, Portuguese & Italian are closer in grammar. While Latin and Spanish are close in grammar.
Observe:
Lei chiude sempre la finestra prima di cenare. (Italian)
Elle ferme toujours la fenêtre avant de dîner. (French)
Ela fecha sempre a janela antes de jantar. (Portuguese)
Ella siempre cierra la ventana antes de cenar. (Spanish)
Ea semper fenestram claudit antequam cenet. (Latin)
Best regards,
I love all of the Romance languages.... they're just soo beautiful...
I'm Colombian which that would make me spanish my grand parents came from Madrid but i love italian and French way more becuase of the sound of them. I know spanish... enough of it to undrstand and speak everyday things but before i learn spanish to the fullest aspect i'm going to learn french and italian. I'm taking frenchnow and i've got my silent end letters and lisping "RR's" (-Unlike Itlaian and spanish with the wonderfull RRRROLL-) down!!
lol.
i know this isn't helping anyone but i wanted to share to the world how much of a dork i am and maybe theres people iout there like me!
I'm Colombian which that would make me spanish my grand parents came from Madrid but i love italian and French way more becuase of the sound of them. I know spanish... enough of it to undrstand and speak everyday things but before i learn spanish to the fullest aspect i'm going to learn french and italian. I'm taking frenchnow and i've got my silent end letters and lisping "RR's" (-Unlike Itlaian and spanish with the wonderfull RRRROLL-) down!!
lol.
i know this isn't helping anyone but i wanted to share to the world how much of a dork i am and maybe theres people iout there like me!
Aldvm: according to your example, and your claims, it is clear that you are misguided.
So as an Italian person am I also biased to say that I understand and like Portuguese better than Spanish??
Please read the following:
Ela fecha sempre a janela antes de jantar. (Portuguese)
- 'fecha' can be replaced with 'encerra'
- 'sempre' can be placed before 'fecha'
- 'cear' although not as popular, can be used in place of 'jantar'
Ella siempre cierra la ventana antes de cenar. (Spanish)
- 'cenar' can be replaced by 'yantar' although not as popular
As such, the sentences can also be written and very indentifiable as:
Ela sempre encerra a janela antes de cear/jantar (Portuguese)
Ella siempre cierra la ventana antes de cenar/yantar (Spanish)
Lei chiude sempre la finestra prima di cenare. (Italian)
Elle ferme toujours la fenêtre avant de dîner. (French)
Ea semper fenestram claudit antequam cenet. (Latin)
Which 2 sentences are closer now? I'll tell you: Portuguese and Spanish
And how do you figure the following Spanish and Latin sentences are closest in grammar?
Ella siempre cierra la ventana antes de cenar. (Spanish)
Ea semper fenestram claudit antequam cenet. (Latin)
Flawed reasoning in my opinion. You suggest Cipriano is biased...his facts speak for themselves. It would appear that you are the one who is biased. Do you think that just be because you prefer Italian to Portuguese that your views are shared by all other Spanish speakers? At least some contributors in this forum, like myself, speak from experiences which demonstrate that several inidividuals have the same opinion. In my own circle of family and friends for example, we understand Portuguese much easier than Spanish. Then there is that fellow who is fluent in Portuguese and Italian (forget his name now), who vacations in Spanish speaking holiday destinations. If I recall, he said that communication is much easier when he speaks Portuguese to the Spanish locals, than when he speaks Italian to them. If you are going to argue your points, at least back them up with compelling evidence.
So as an Italian person am I also biased to say that I understand and like Portuguese better than Spanish??
Please read the following:
Ela fecha sempre a janela antes de jantar. (Portuguese)
- 'fecha' can be replaced with 'encerra'
- 'sempre' can be placed before 'fecha'
- 'cear' although not as popular, can be used in place of 'jantar'
Ella siempre cierra la ventana antes de cenar. (Spanish)
- 'cenar' can be replaced by 'yantar' although not as popular
As such, the sentences can also be written and very indentifiable as:
Ela sempre encerra a janela antes de cear/jantar (Portuguese)
Ella siempre cierra la ventana antes de cenar/yantar (Spanish)
Lei chiude sempre la finestra prima di cenare. (Italian)
Elle ferme toujours la fenêtre avant de dîner. (French)
Ea semper fenestram claudit antequam cenet. (Latin)
Which 2 sentences are closer now? I'll tell you: Portuguese and Spanish
And how do you figure the following Spanish and Latin sentences are closest in grammar?
Ella siempre cierra la ventana antes de cenar. (Spanish)
Ea semper fenestram claudit antequam cenet. (Latin)
Flawed reasoning in my opinion. You suggest Cipriano is biased...his facts speak for themselves. It would appear that you are the one who is biased. Do you think that just be because you prefer Italian to Portuguese that your views are shared by all other Spanish speakers? At least some contributors in this forum, like myself, speak from experiences which demonstrate that several inidividuals have the same opinion. In my own circle of family and friends for example, we understand Portuguese much easier than Spanish. Then there is that fellow who is fluent in Portuguese and Italian (forget his name now), who vacations in Spanish speaking holiday destinations. If I recall, he said that communication is much easier when he speaks Portuguese to the Spanish locals, than when he speaks Italian to them. If you are going to argue your points, at least back them up with compelling evidence.
Hello, Michelina (did you decide to change your name? Cipriano?)
"Yantar" is a archaism in Spanish. Yantar: 1. tr. ant. comer (ǁ tomar alimento). U. en leng. poét. U. en Ecuador.
&
Also, fenestra: 1. f. desus. ventana.
That's like saying, I could use -fenestra- and -yantar- in spanish. Which by the way are archaisms. ACCORDING to your analogy depicted above^
http://www.rae.es
"Yantar" is a archaism in Spanish. Yantar: 1. tr. ant. comer (ǁ tomar alimento). U. en leng. poét. U. en Ecuador.
&
Also, fenestra: 1. f. desus. ventana.
That's like saying, I could use -fenestra- and -yantar- in spanish. Which by the way are archaisms. ACCORDING to your analogy depicted above^
http://www.rae.es