Lexical similarities between French-Spanish-Italian

Hola!

Oíd vosotros..! el español e italiano son símiles a la pronunciación. Aquí dentro de EE.UU y México todos los habitantes prefieren al italiano, muy pocos, les place aprender el portugués. Creo que sólo un párvulo entre el pueblo estadouidense y mexicano les interesa el portugués.

Es la verdad.

En Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay y Chile, estan aprendiendo el idioma Portugues como segunda lengua. Les encatan el idioma Portugues y la cultura Brasilena.

Aldvm, so it's okay for you to use examples of 'archaisms' when it's convenient for you to do so, but not for me or anyone else. Talk about a double-standard. I am quickly realizing that you are prone to taking cheap-shots when you are unable to counter-argue with words. So from this point on I am not going to dignify any snide remarks you make by responding to them. I'll leave that to any others in this forum who feel so inclined to do so.

Por favor, leen y comparen la siguiente informacion en las dos lenguas hermanas que son Espanol y Portugues.

PORTUGUES:

Como é sabido, a maioria dos alunos tem preguiça de consultar um dicionário de espanhol, acredito que o costume já vem dos tempos da escola, mas ainda assim, nós temos que pensar que as vezes se torna necessario "correr" ao dicionário.

Meu conselho é que vocês tentem ao máximo não consultar o dicionário, e sim, tentar deduzir a palavra, mas como último recurso, e se a imaginação acabar, então não fica outra que consultar o dicionario. Esse conselho serve para poder forçar mais o cérebro e assim conseguir que a palavra procurada fique mais tempo na memória, e quem sabe até fique no lado da memória fixa, naquela onde guardamos o número da namorada, nossa data de nascimento ou o nome do cara que bateu pela primeira vez nosso carro novinho .

Enquanto vocês não decidam que dicionário comprar, eu lhes deixo o seguinte link para o DICCIONARIO DE LA LENGUA ESPAÑOLA:. Eu achei muito útil e com diversos recursos, tipo conjugação de todos os verbos, sinónimos/antónimos, etc. E uma carateristica fundamental....é GRATIS!!!!

Vocês acharam um link para este dicionario no lado esquerdo da tela.

ESPANOL:

Como es sabido, la mayoría de los alumnos tienen flojera de consultar un diccionario de español, creo que esta costumbre ya viene de los tiempos de la escuela, pero aún así, tenemos que pensar que a veces se torna necesario "correr" para el diccionario.

Mi consejo es que intenten al máximo no consultar el diccionario, y sí, intentar deducir la palabra, pero como último recurso y se la imaginación se acaba, entonces no queda otra que consultar el diccionario. Este consejo sirve para poder forzar más el cerebro y así conseguir que la palabra buscada quede más tiempo en la memoria, y quien sabe hasta quede en el lado de la memoria fija, en aquella donde guardamos el numero de la enamorada, nuestra fecha de nacimiento o el nombre del tipo que chocó por primera vez nuestro carro nuevecito .

Por mientras que no decidan que diccionario comprar, les dejo el siguiente link para el DICCIONARIO DE LA LENGUA ESPAÑOLA, encontré muy útil y con diversos recursos, tipo conjugación de todos los verbos, sinónimos/antónimos, etc. Y una característica fundamental....es GRATIS!!!

Encontrarán un link para este diccionario en el lado izquierdo de la tela.

This is for those who still think that Portuguese is not important enough for Spanish speakers to care about learning it.

Mercosur or Mercosul (Spanish: Mercado Común del Sur, Portuguese: Mercado Comum do Sul, English: Southern Common Market) is a RTA (Regional Trade Agreement) between Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Venezuela, and Paraguay, founded in 1991 by the Treaty of Asunción, which was later amended and updated by the 1994 Treaty of Ouro Preto. Its purpose is to promote free trade and the fluid movement of goods, peoples, and currency.

Mercosur origins trace back to 1985 when Presidents of Argentina Raúl Alfonsín and Brazil José Sarney signed the Argentina-Brazil Integration and Economics Cooperation Program or PICE (Spanish: Programa de Integración y Cooperación Económica Argentina-Brasil).

Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador and Peru currently have associate member status. Venezuela signed its membership agreement on 17 June 2006, and became a full member on July 4 of the same year. The organization has a South and Central America integration vocation.

Membership:

Current members:
Argentina (1991)
Brazil (1991)
Paraguay (1991)
Uruguay (1991)
Venezuela (2006)

Associate members:
Chile (1996)
Bolivia (1997), in process of joining
Peru (2003)
Colombia (2004)
Ecuador (2004)
Venezuela (2004-2006), joined

Observer countries:
Mexico (2004), in process of becoming an associate member
(So much for Sigma's comment about the Mexicans not caring about learning Portuguese)

The participating Spanish speaking countries are learning Portuguese as a second language, and the Portuguese speakers in Brazil are learning Spanish as a second language. The fact that both of these languages are so close to one another makes learning Spanish, or Portuguese, a breeeeeze.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercosur

Portuguese is a awful and disunified language. European-portuguese and Brazilian-portuguese are practically unintelligible. Portuguese sounds like a native spanish-speaker with his NOSE pressed or pinched. I have never seen Portuguese being taught at a university or J.C. Arabic is actually, more important, now, then Portuguese.



Portuguese sounds horrendous!

CaRLoS......hah,hah,hah,hah,hah CaRLos Hee,Hee,Hee,Hee,Hee

Since we are discussing the alleged unimportance of the Portuguese language, here are my 2 cents worth. Read carefully...some of you might learn something.

China’s Portuguese Connection

China grooms a strategic relationship with the Community of Portuguese Language Countries

Loro Horta
Ian Storey
YaleGlobal, 22 June 2006

Resourceful friends: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao (left) visits Angolan President José Eduardo dos Santos (right), one of the resource-rich countries of Africa, on Wen's itinerary.

HONOLULU and SINGAPORE: Unnoticed by many observers has been China’s growing relationship with the Portuguese speaking world, a grouping composed of eight nations with a combined population of 230 million and trade with China totaling $19 billion. The eight countries are brought together under the Comunidade dos Países de Língua Portuguesa (CPLP), or Community of Portuguese Language Countries, and consists of the following nations: Angola, Brazil, Cape Verde, Guinea Bissau, Mozambique, Portugal, the Democratic Republic of São Tomé and Príncipe, and the Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste.

China has several reasons for pursuing a relationship with CPLP: First and foremost is energy security. Over the past few years, energy security, particularly oil supply security, has become a priority for the Chinese leadership. China is now the world’s second largest consumer of energy resources after the US. More than 60 percent of China’s crude oil imports come from the Middle East, and Beijing views this dependency as a strategic vulnerability because of ongoing political instability and US military preponderance in and around the region. China is therefore trying to diversify its energy imports away from traditional sources in the Persian Gulf. These include CPLP countries such as Angola, Brazil, Mozambique and Timor-Leste. Second, Beijing is keen to exploit CPLP countries’ rich natural resources to fuel the country’s own breakneck economic growth. Third, 230 million people represent a major market for Chinese manufactured goods. And finally, the Portuguese-speaking organization represents a diplomatic community, one that China can utilize to restrict Taiwan’s international space.

Without question, Angola is China’s most important partner on the African continent. The country is the second largest oil producer in Africa and possesses one of the world’s largest diamonds fields. In February 2006 Angola became the largest supplier of crude oil to China, beating Saudi Arabia and Iran into second and third place. Recognizing how Angolan oil can contribute to its continuing growth, China has embarked on a massive offensive to secure its vital position in the country. During Vice Premier Zeng Peiyang’s visit in 2005, China granted the Angolan government a $6.3 million interest-free loan and additional $2.2 billion in soft loans in early 2006. Agreements have also been signed in the telecommunications sector, with China pledging to invest $400 million in Angola’s Telecom and a further $100 million to upgrade Angola’s military communications. Chinese companies have also participated in the construction of railroads, shopping centers and housing projects, and construction of a major oil refinery is planned. In 2005 Angola was China’s second largest trading partner in Africa, with a trade volume of $5 billion.

China is also increasing activity in Mozambique. While Chinese foreign direct investment in Mozambique remains small at $9 million in 2005, one should take into account that it has grown from a mere $436,000 in 2004. Trade between the two nations totaled $160 million in 2005. The small amounts belie the importance of Mozambique to China, as the country is believed to have large reserves of untapped natural gas and oil. China is also becoming a major source of credit with a $2.3 billion soft loan granted this year for the construction of a major dam on the Zambezi River.

Due to chronic instability in Guinea Bissau and Cape Verde’s small size and lack of raw materials, these two CPLP members are the least important for Beijing. However, Beijing retains a diplomatic presence to prevent these countries from turning to Taiwan, as tiny São Tomé and Príncipe did in 2002. As a result, São Tomé and Príncipe are excluded from any CPLP-China cooperation.

While trade between China and Timor-Leste was a mere $1.7 million in 2005, recent agreements between Dili and Beijing are likely to change that. In 2004 PetroChina concluded a multimillion dollar seismic study to assess the profitability of inshore oil and natural gas reserves. Although information is limited, some sources speculate that China plans to construct a pipeline to bring oil and natural gas from the island’s interior to Chinese vessels on the northern coast. To further consolidate its influence in the fledgling country China has financed highly visible construction projects, such as the presidential palace and the foreign ministry building. Beijing has also stepped up defense and security cooperation with Dili.

In December 2005 China and Portugal established a strategic partnership. While a small power, Portugal has been a useful friend, with Lisbon well disposed toward ending the EU arms embargo on China. Portugal’s 500-year-old relationship with Africa and its strong presence on the continent that goes beyond its former colonies are valuable assets for China. Beijing values its ties with Lisbon – enough to deem the country as one of five in Europe awarded status of strategic partner.

China’s most important CPLP trading partner is Brazil. In 2006 the volume of bilateral trade reached $10 billion. On the energy front, China is investing up to $5 billion in the construction of a gas pipeline from Macaé to Salvador. Beijing has also shown interest in Brazil’s large uranium reserves and invited Brazilian companies to participate in the construction of nuclear power plants in China. China and Brazil have launched several jointly developed satellites, and both countries are reported to be cooperating in the development of an aircraft. With a population of 186 million, a fast-growing economy and a highly developed industrial sector, Brazil is by far South America’s dominant power and increasingly becoming China’s main partner on the continent.

Having relations with CPLP members is hardly unique, but China’s methods are quite farsighted, attesting to the increasing sophistication of Chinese diplomacy. Unlike other powers who have engaged in close relations with particular CPLP countries – but had little or no interaction with other members – China not only connects with the various CPLP nations on a bilateral basis but also as a group. With the former Portuguese enclave of Macau, sovereignty of which returned to the PRC on December 20, 1999, serving as a hub, China has organized a series of initiatives that not only bring the Portuguese-speaking nations closer together, but also closer to China. In 2003 China and the CPLP signed a Trade and Cooperation Agreement, and agreed to hold triennial meetings with CPLP and PRC trade ministers. Similar arrangements are planned for other portfolios.

Over the past year or so, China reduced the debts of Africa’s CPLP members, tripled aid to Timor-Leste, awarded Portugal the status of strategic partner and made available $8.2 million in interest-free credit for CPLP members. Negotiations are also under way to establish an investment bank to increase China-CPLP trade relations and fund joint projects. China has also provided generous support to host the first ever CPLP games to take place in Macau in September 2006. Further evidence that China seeks to foster ties with the Lusophone world as a group was its decision in May 2006 to grant Guinea Bissau a $1 million aid package to help the impoverished nation host the CPLP heads-of state-summit in late 2006. On the diplomatic front, China has an impressive number of Portuguese-speaking diplomats, many of whom have served for long periods of time in CPLP countries. Overall, Beijing’s CPLP strategy has been successful in enhancing China’s vital interests in a world of 230 million people spread across four continents.

Loro Horta is enrolled in Strategic Studies at the Institute of Defence and Strategic Studies, Nanyang Technological University in Singapore. He lived and worked in Mozambique for several years. Ian Storey is an assistant professor at the Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies in Honolulu. The views expressed in this article do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the US Government or any of its agencies.

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=7634

Please I'm sure people really do not listen to uneducated biggots like Carlos when wanting to hear educated opinions apart the situation about the Portuguese language and its importance in Latin America. Sigma is sure to talk about the unimportance of Portuguese since she speaks a varuety of Spanish that most people who are not Mexican think it sounds like "hick country spanish" no matter where you are from in Spanish. It annoys me hearing that accent on nearly all the Telemundo or Univision Telenovelas and being towted as the so called "Neutral Spanish" (no one else but the Mexican's speak like that). It reminds me of a program on HBO Latino that I watched about random Latino's being interviewed about their daily experiences in everday life. One lady was an actress from Puerto Rico and her agency forced her to take a voice class so she could learn to speak an "acceptable" neutral form of Spanish when all it was was her learning to talk like a Mexican so she could be accepted on the Telenovela she acted on as Mexican. How offensive that she has to change who she was to learn to speak such a neutral ugly accent she said. I certainly felt for and the many Argentinian actors and actresses that had to change their beautiful Argentinian accents for the ugly neutral one. My point is that I can make an argument about something else being ugly and unattractive in my eyes as many of these others see Portuguese as being unattractive in their eyes. I know I will offend people ( ie. Sigma, Carlos) with my opinions but truthfully they offend me with their opinions daily with their postings daily. I have finally spoken out and as many of the non-Spanish speaking Italians which were smart enough to point out that the majority of Latinos would agree with them that the absolute closest language to Latin American castellano (except Mexican) is Brazilian Portuguese.



.........The truth hurts sometimes.......

.........fin.........

JGreco:

I tried out what CARLOS indicated in his poster, and I think if you emphasis a bit more on the hymns, you can pass as being Portuguese if your native language is Spanish. The reason why actors / actresses changed their usual phonetic to neutral spanish, is because, they choose to. They're were not force into it, they actually receive a pretty penny out of it. So stop whinning.

Now...

Mexican-spanish has it's dialects and regionalisms & idioms. But, not all mexicans use regionalisms / idioms frequently and sound tired when speaking spanish. That's mostly in the north of Mexico, friend. Central Mexico is where they speak a pleasant form of Spanish (also known as neutral-spanish) which sounds lovely.


Italian is OFTEN regarded as the sister language to Spanish. Because it is closer to spanish in phonology and more or less in grammar / vocabulary.


As wikipedia puts it:

"Spanish and Italian share a very similar phonological system and do not differ very much in grammar, vocabulary and above all morphology. Speakers of both languages can communicate relatively well: at present, the lexical similarity with Italian is estimated at 82%. As a result, Spanish and Italian are mutually intelligible to various degrees."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language

&

"The two major Romance languages originated in the Iberian Peninsula, Spanish and Portuguese, have generally a moderate degree of mutual intelligibility in their standard spoken forms, though Spanish morphology and phonetics is much easier for a Portuguese speaker to understand than vice versa."

"Spanish and Portuguese share similar grammars and a majority of vocabulary as well as a common history of Arabic influence while a great part of the peninsula was under Islamic rule (both languages expanded over Islamic territories). Their lexical similarity is estimated at 89%."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language


You're a plebeian to think PORTUGUESE is intelligible for us native-spanish speakers. Italian is far greater closer to Spanish in phonology, grammar, vocabulary etc. I'll even add, that Greek is closer to Spanish in the phonological sense.


"The truth will liberate you"

JGreco

<<It annoys me hearing that accent on nearly all the Telemundo or Univision Telenovelas and being towted as the so called "Neutral Spanish" (no one else but the Mexican's speak like that).>>

I think that the telenovelas' Spanish lacks of a recognisable accent to give a neutral way of speaking, so the telenovela can be seen anywhere what could result in a higher success. Mexicans don't speak that way. Of course that's not a rule everywhere, Argentinians, Spaniards or Venezuelans, for example use their accent. But Mexican telenovelas are not the only thing under such concept on neutrality. The movies, telenovelas or scientific programs made in other languages are dubbed using a neutral Spanish (where the people can do it) and not only in Mexico. Personally I found annoying f.e. to see John Wayne with Spaniard or Argentinian accent. It ruins the movie for me. I repeat it, that's my personal opinion.

<<It reminds me of a program on HBO Latino that I watched about random Latino's being interviewed about their daily experiences in everday life. One lady was an actress from Puerto Rico and her agency forced her to take a voice class so she could learn to speak an "acceptable" neutral form of Spanish when all it was was her learning to talk like a Mexican so she could be accepted on the Telenovela she acted on as Mexican>>

That's absolutely normal and reasonable. You can't perform a roll of Mexican with a Puerto Rican accent, that's more than obvious. Mel Gibson f.e. when he performed Hamlet had to changed his accent to a English one. That doesn't have nothing to do with discrimination or so.

"Spanish and Italian share a very similar phonological system and do not differ very much in grammar, vocabulary and above all morphology. Speakers of both languages can communicate relatively well: at present, the lexical similarity with Italian is estimated at 82%. As a result, Spanish and Italian are mutually intelligible to various degrees."

"Spanish and Portuguese share similar grammars and a majority of vocabulary as well as a common history of Arabic influence while a great part of the peninsula was under Islamic rule (both languages expanded over Islamic territories). Their lexical similarity is estimated at 89%."

Aldvm, or whoever you are, you just contradicted yourself. You claim that Italian and Spanish, "...Italian is far greater closer to Spanish in phonology, grammar, vocabulary etc." In fact, what the except says is, "Spanish and Portuguese share similar grammars and a majority of vocabulary as well as a common history of Arabic influence...."

The following Wikpedia excerpts say that Italian and Spanish have a lexical similarity of 82%, and that Spanish and Portuguese have a lexical similarity of 89%. That said, how can you make the fallacious claim that Spanish and Italian vocabulary is higher than that of Spanish and Portuguese??

I suggest you take a course in 'Modes of Reasoning' before you try to engage in any form of deabte, because any justifications you try to make are fallacious, fallacious, fallacious.

"...Spanish and Italian are mutually intelligible to various degrees." The operative terms here are 'various degrees'. I suppose that one could also say the same thing about many other language pairs e.g., English and Dutch. Yes, these two languages are intelligible to 'various degrees' too, but that certainly doesn't make them fully mutually intelligible. Aldvm, you are just a person with a biased opinion (and you have accused others of being like that)...but your opinion which is not based on sound reasoning. If you check, you will find many academic papers oand books on the mutual intelligibility of Portuguese and Spanish, and far, far less on Italian and Spanish. At least the academic books and papers on the mutual intelligibility of Portuguese and Spanish are based on solid empirical research; you do know what 'emprical' means, don't you?

For some reason aldvm, your unfounded claims smack of insecurity on your part. You seem to want Spanish and Italian to be more similar...evidently it bothers you so much that Italian just simply isn't as close to Spanish as Portuguese is. The majority of us in this forum speak from facts, yes facts, when we say that Spanish and Portuguese are brother languages, and certainly the closest of the Romance family at that. That's a fact of life like it or not. Spain and Portugal are neighbours in Europe and neighbours in South America. They will always be closer in every way. Italy does not enter into that reality. Not because Italy is bad or Italians are bad, no. It's simply because things are the way they are and none of us can change the reality.

I need to jump in here. Please read the following 2 paragraphs in Spanish and Portuguese. How much closer can two languages get?

SPANISH:
Pero, a pesar de esta variedad de posibilidades que la voz posee, sería muy pobre instrumento de comunicación si no contara más que con ella. La capacidad de expresión del hombre no dispondría de más medios que la de los animales. La voz, sola, es para el hombre apenas una materia informe, que para convertirse en un instrumento perfecto de comunicación debe ser sometida a un cierto tratamiento. Esa manipulación que recibe la voz son las "articulaciones".

PORTUGUESE:
Porém, apesar desta variedade de possibilidades que a voz possui, seria um instrumento de comunicação muito pobre se não contasse com mais além dela. A capacidade de expressão do homem não disporia de mais meios que a dos animais. A voz, sozinha, é para o homem apenas uma matéria informe, que para se converter num instrumento perfeito de comunicação deve ser submetida a um certo tratamento. Essa manipulação que a voz recebe são as "articulações".

Here is a little excerpt taken from a linguistics academic paper on the great closeness between the Spanish and Portuguese languages.

Introducción

"Entre las lenguas románicas, el portugués y el español son las que mantienen una mayor semejanza lingüística. Las afinidades entre ellas son tan grandes que Ulsh (1971) establece, por ejemplo, que más del 85% de los vocablos en portugués tienen cognados en español. Son, de hecho, lenguas tan próximas, que son casi variantes dialectales una de la otra...."

NILMA NASCIMENTO DOMINIQUE

http://elies.rediris.es/Language_Design/LD6/dominique.pdf